From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail32.out.titan.email (mail32.out.titan.email [3.67.56.127]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5F133B2A4 for ; Wed, 15 May 2024 21:14:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail10.out.titan.email (ip-10-10-88-26.eu-central-1.compute.internal [10.10.88.26]) by smtp-out.titan.email (Postfix) with ESMTP id A388712088B for ; Thu, 16 May 2024 01:14:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp-out.flockmail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out.flockmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42038E0211; Thu, 16 May 2024 01:14:51 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; bh=Koudctw4Ncvbo1XusT8JcNXtC+Qj4qhdovwsBjKNsCM=; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=3kitty.org; h=in-reply-to:date:message-id:mime-version:to:from:subject:references:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:cc:reply-to; q=dns/txt; s=titan1; t=1715822091; v=1; b=Zm9E2EnQsHgWiFE/vEH/1yQFC4UzwYqDkkWW7VbxBiKdOuIf3xO20UOuL+NeCESZhEvl9kdS X4kvAydDtOwd8dtD4jA1PdCoYSnfGdDFokO2odmRnoXOvMpuZTFoFo0PbYKBSPge8eIq7HgGchQ bKLrlnAx2g7QOm/TPfGdvF7s= Received: from [192.168.1.100] (c-76-137-180-175.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [76.137.180.175]) by smtp-out.flockmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id B7CC5E0148; Thu, 16 May 2024 01:14:50 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <9a465722-bcdf-4410-ae9a-c0a160081eb5@3kitty.org> Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 18:14:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net References: Content-Language: en-US Feedback-ID: :jack@3kitty.org:3kitty.org:flockmailId From: Jack Haverty Autocrypt: addr=jack@3kitty.org; keydata= xsDNBGCm2psBDADGOWO8n9wfkDW9ZUEo8o+SZ5MU9us2il+fS4EFM/RaZFIbQ+P72bExzSd3 WnJdPfqO1O7Q+dRnvVO9+G2/9oT/uRZVaE05+SothzKZBv32HcZoUkdNZOTqSkdo3EwNPjid LLxX+dMBxMpR3pBdvGN8Z7lnZe6fV4QO2xtd58y3B33AVZJp+RuNwucby9dY2meyy2BJVKrx mKhYXAucVyg0ALVIchHt9UknVW4aLvQF+oMfzXVvCWeguW+DvbyazVceWGO7FSgUJ8ED3Ii7 xAR5zZJ1LASoMhG1ixg07P9Uy4ohV6c+c0yV9SY4yqhZ3+zN2cm9h/aXpwjSuiVVAJbK7zzb FjI+h89dbnaVQrLx6GikV0OVYqC6TCeMfCFZQAJLs1icxQi3BLL7O1fbTGatEfTgLa5nqfKq K/D/HlOCUeFxqZI8hXvT5dG4e1m3ilpF2/ytcWKSVg3d699UFntPv3sEbAQwwfXsnuD4Hem6 0Ao0/z41n8x1aeZE80FdkpEAEQEAAc0eSmFjayBIYXZlcnR5IDxqYWNrQDNraXR0eS5vcmc+ wsEJBBMBCAAzFiEEZLvMn5vmvTAlFEILdGzDIkA7jlAFAmCm2pwCGwMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsC BRYCAwEAAAoJEHRswyJAO45QuX0L/jOluv8fr/BmuEEQsWWGW6oARIbjDQrI93kXIJXuPnfp tGjkx/f1TMIzI2B9s/tejiYE7IZOhWbX1YvKF0UbkSJi50UyV9XtYRnLdD5TcksKB4luDF8S R+nj5WBm17Bp8qwriCMgA1jGL2wQ7J1KUw4Q/gsMcjhn/39PevswkriU2qqVplfCs9yTTMU5 SvtE2U9F3Y1ZINHn3kUysvxhRFd+Oh3PocWHmVE+hkII+qsra6z4eztDgoB+vqxmOJEdtvex GhT8OKu74DacguZVfu/AV+cwpX701sdjJrMyKjcv8uhFLM/E5gf6kSUAFxBVwe6pNDmAgmbS c0fAFrZjgXxNxxndpu/8OAUDVzKg+l5WJ0nWss9Q14BwA+FcoclO3lwzFu7jOiLvkm7jQkFB o+p8Owe4iAED1KK/aocIa/RiD4sZ3KXUJ92kkemZ1Qe2XpFVdzxaQDG0huNkc5Mie9rdt62O Ae+5cYdPeWmBVn+pFNs5H09kQQbVR5pUxe2Aps7AzQRgptqcAQwAzzougHNMFr/O/L8HnNJW 1YyOuX0PEVNUXQPwkxKuD8bAXsPr4Hv1a+840ByesiJSadhQgVSMruRqoQC5tTkbEWkqlfDW waNAdqCJOXl2T6gtK7RpcHNx7+/du/gCAhHOXqH1Qfs0Zi3YEbR/kQFRP3wD4GiCvHSny8zJ X9plIHqQGoE5DePNAtE2KimbFMsjguqJgq5x0tMf3qEaMNd0IGTStGpcC49iss71slotH091 Y1Yo9CpzL6rj8IP0BfssEujAvf3Gbf1oi92JRE3s2humFDfPvSlHmRIfWPQ4qFOw1zmlzsV1 eg83gErKbjaDdkbwQA85RTmMVKNVvonM80WB6jAg8tlJ5VlYlpbzASpJRNj+FL1LLBQxCbPU eFwrzqYgNvtdKR7j5nTgdndCxq+2aws/aAjdL10S8yeH7ZOpNPzjDJfMSt/L1O25zPUhXdQC 9AZNYsfyV7rf+POEgVpIEth1fT9WbmS0rZxRd/+y628n31GicbA+teN890vdABEBAAHCwPYE GAEIACAWIQRku8yfm+a9MCUUQgt0bMMiQDuOUAUCYKbanQIbDAAKCRB0bMMiQDuOUF1LC/4q 4pLtmDt6TIET2H7zGj5ie3ng7kC7YqtFPYwgLQzs9WeqQ/5WowEmHOPonBcqhGbtDj22GebQ 7w0RoUHb+aXsbC85I/C+nWgT1ZcfMBTHGlBcIQvOCNG18g87Ha9jgD0HnW4bRUkZmGMpP0Yd TLM+PBNu41AK6z82VPQrfTuPKqwAAS2FK/RpF2xB7rjpETzIPl9Dj9EAkRbviURIg0BQkmej l02FLzGmlTfBIDHBdEgzvD71Z5H9BP8DAbxBzonSTzx/KZyv7njSUzdVLW+5O/WzPgb4Qt4I jQd66LS9HWS1G7AcLjiSQAIf8v7JkX3NwtN+NGX5cmt2p0e9FOOKWXVgCIgPN3/712EEGAgq UUxuPEBD5DrRCgjZL40eHxQza2BAhoVoWopUCGZdCCZJP3iF7818wIph0U393DELG9NAGLJa qkoA8KBimXp9Rd2QvpA864JRy/REoEOEF9lm3clriLyEqaL/VMIQRhl/VSkUuez4Wr68eHus TFdwePg= In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------1m0SCN50AoLqcQGIZhMSRTiM" X-F-Verdict: SPFVALID X-Titan-Src-Out: 1715822091133396524.2437.4716802773400105301@prod-use1-smtp-out1004. X-CMAE-Score: 0 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=bvBKBlai c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=66455e0b a=cdvcmBiFVbz+0Uto4GLkPg==:117 a=cdvcmBiFVbz+0Uto4GLkPg==:17 a=CEWIc4RMnpUA:10 a=13zjGPudsaEWiJwPRgMA:9 a=kurRqvosAAAA:8 a=hPoJL0YCAAAA:8 a=jU4qhlNgAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=33v4Sba3Wy9yJjLOWuQA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=X-aAQs0CHs0A:10 a=uBxrYWegKpAxMT9cJGgA:9 a=Fj3VtDL8pXSbpJTY:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=lqcHg5cX4UMA:10 a=mVcgwxjBTkr3zjpDlhIA:9 a=FfaGCDsud1wA:10 a=FGwu42OaUM5h3d_SgcUA:9 a=sK0p3ZU6OCmgYLQZgZ-U:22 a=kbxRQ_lfPIoQnHsAj2-A:22 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Subject: Re: [NNagain] "FCC explicitly prohibits fast lanes, closing possible net neutrality loophole" X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 01:14:52 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME 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--------------KwqybSVvMuGQJvb7RYL4EzT6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Whatever "the service" is, I wonder what the new rules imply about how traffic is processed.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Even 40 years ago, we tried lots of heuristics to improve performance.=C2=A0 One example I remember was treating datagrams differently depending simply on the size of their content.=C2=A0=C2=A0= Putting a minimal-length datagram at the front of the output queue would slightly "degrade" the service delivered to the large datagrams behind it, but it might avoid a retransmission by delivering an ACK before a retransmission timer ran out.

If the new rules prohibit such behavior, I suspect a lot of more modern "smart queue" strategies might be also prohibited, such that all datagrams are given the exact same treatment.=C2=A0=C2=A0 FIFO ma= y now be the law?

With circuits in the 80s running <56kb/sec, such scenarios were of real concern.=C2=A0 Today, with "bufferbloat" and such characteris= tics of the Internet, the scenarios are different but still exist.

Jack Haverty

On 5/15/24 17:55, Vint Cerf via Nnagai= n wrote:
An interpretation of the intent might be not so much a prohibition of various grades of service but that all grades are available on the same terms to all comers.=C2=A0

v


On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 5:43=E2=80=AFPM Karl Auerbach via Nnagain <nnag= ain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

As a matter of drafting the FCC has left some potholes:

"We clarify that a BIAS [Broadband Internet Access Service] provider's decision to speed up 'on the basis of Internet content, applications, or services' would 'impair or degrade' other content, applications, or services which are not given the same treatment,"

That phrase "speed up" is too vague.=C2=A0 Does it conflic= t with active or fair queue management?=C2=A0 Does it prohibi= t things that some Ethernet NIC "offloads" do (but which could be done by a provider) such as TCP data aggregation (i.e. the merging of lots of small TCP segments into one big one)? Does it prohibit insertion of an ECN bit that would have the effect of slowing a sender of packets?=C2=A0= Might it preclude a provider "helpfully" dropping stale video packets that would arrive at a users video rendering codec too late to be useful?=C2=A0 Could there be an issue = with selective compression?=C2=A0 Or, to really get nerdy - give= n that a lot of traffic uses Ethernet frames as a model, there can be a non-trivial amount of hidden, usually unused, bandwidth in that gap between the end of tiny IP packets and the end of minimum length Ethernet frames. (I've seen that space used for things like license management.)=C2=A0 Or might this impact larger path issues,= such as routing choices, either dynamic or based on contractual relationships - such as conversational voice over terrestrial or low-earth-orbit paths while background file transfers are sent via fat, but large latency paths such as geo-synch satellite?=C2=A0 If an ISP found a means = of blocking spam from being delivered, would that violate the rules?=C2=A0 (Same question for blocking of VoIP calls from= undesirable sources.=C2=A0 It may also call into question e= ven the use of IP address blacklists or reverse path algorithms that block traffic coming from places where it has no business coming from.)

The answers may be obvious to tech folks here but in the hands of troublesome lawyers (I'm one of those) these ambiguities could be elevated to be real headaches.

These may seem like minor or even meaningless nits, but these are the kinds of things that can be used by lawyers (again, like me) to tie regulatory bodies into knots, which often a goal of some large organizations that do not like regulation.

In addition, I can't put my finger on it, but I am sensing that without some flexibility the FCC neutrality rules may be creating a kind of no cost, tragedy of the commons situation.=C2=A0 Sometimes a bit of friction - cost= - can be useful to either incentivize improvements and invention or to make things (like spam) less desirable/more expensive to abusers.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 --karl--

On 5/10/24 7:31 AM, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain wrote:<= br>
"Net neutrality proponents argued that these separate lanes for different kinds of traffic would degrade performance of traffic that isn't favored. The final FCC order released yesterday addresses that complaint.=C2=A0

"We clarify that a BIAS [Broadband Internet Access Service] provider's decision to speed up 'on the basis of Internet content, applications, or services' would 'impair or degrade' other content, applications, or services which are not given the same treatment," the FCC's final order said.=C2=A0

The "impair or degrade" clarification means that speeding up is banned because the no-throttling rule says that ISPs "shall not impair or degrade lawful Internet traffic on the basis of Internet content, application, or service."



All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

=C2=A0

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekbors= ik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +4= 21919416714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +4= 20775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


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