From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9EF9B3CB37 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2023 07:33:40 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1700138017; x=1700742817; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=I+T7iI16v7EautJz7XVa870KeaNtWYTrttva1f5ZrQQ=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=Ira+EMN5WQNOQ4TwW1e3Jqchw7idiPQv3Yj2CJsOIqWJPBu+Y1mVl5+thX0qH3qe 3WIfkVc/aZ/HLVbx1BXgf2sCF7ofe7PQxprof/42JwLjwlKmJbIfsi0NQSskJA4NV rgvCfUYet4bJWMVFgVYusks5LCaueVGnNltw74jm16dZzeNXrXoTO4BsEMlrB/OjS P+gPKfG1lWlOwp7TMsICMn2xPUywqoInvl6rbm8bQpksj/LaBxrWf3oTbPcGWGuqx 0i61Nr75xRbg6GnG+sTfFCzzd9///EyNu7ImOcV9mpBUKLbT3D6LDHF1+4WL3/eck YOi+bP6a3eRg+IDQPw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([46.183.103.8]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N0G1d-1rFeUz0Dhv-00xJ9c; Thu, 16 Nov 2023 13:33:37 +0100 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 12:01:57 +0100 From: Sebastian Moeller To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=B4s_mak?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?e_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= , Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain , Dick Roy User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <6318C91C-A664-464E-8A9E-4C2A0FFD9C05@comcast.com> <4154C0D8-EF61-4483-97F9-7CDE82CD803D@gmx.de> <35F467F6DA3F419FA78DA6BBB236030D@SRA6> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=----1O32FU5SPLJWGE9MM53TEN057D28C6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:0sABLLDaaMQwcx64UyDbPRqXnl8AfCj1gI/B1IdEMp9anu6vN4E AnkCetAfub9syEANGXGpb8cMpl/uY+atlA391Ffemmco68wwsS2QzOtDw37jEgZAo9F/hm/ fivwCoOSK6Q2v67j6v8k2lPkXQWYdPk0YyR2hdQVNLHOQzNyuuZGm2bFVc0eCrepFyqyOaU gJopJe1qalSyqe5/wXAgg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:WlRmoMLlC6E=;cEwXY/61+pwd+hvOssg8szgo6dL viZq4DT1NBKUZ6hDL9NFXB1nSbBtrrBuctKiLD/99vQyxOXRYsiS+5uY23b/JN3/fd3tnceN0 qk0LEcN0BkDVBfe8GjGDkcOpzCqnYTjwMc4g7p5FXW/kTIJbTTGLW32BP421W+4RsokfqGO/u wRmkl+Is93u4hAy3X78jCDq2VLPw5bmX7dZGxy5sotVPmc8eRFv5RGsWG4LjXdza4znCM/VtF 2vO2dLcoRHguQmFRUkxHqGgthdSJtpY3HTiR3kCH7KKOuG7Btf63mmJBT8+rPfoERLHIqmnMt xqchr3Pee5DuEN0TNFFBewe2UTn3etjfnTbTWdYpgQTZZA9NvL1NcDTnt2gFD4WZalMPbsEXn FEwxZ03IqlGp8lwd41Si2Z4rxsl7+Rx1IBUFuiNGjiwgMDrssr/KzP5OQGAHdgoI8t+xUp68r 5fQcWvwURncOMJm7KGSA8c93C9X0C7ItXh/Rv7WO60X6N9QGun3iD76/wqU9f3j+yqsuL2w4+ YkzzKJ/8QtwH1EaZ28ZkhxqV4JuUJXoOk5Y/RP3j9TGToHyNCmWQU5FPlEY76ZRiMzQ+Hf1qk dxvcnfhZdqncjqL5jOsIrpZ0FlZ80bWd/fAemSxaOy6FJGKRGNdi52w7mgpOHoVcTg+pbm6Bt B+DIkhyPSX3/vy77viZbHQLj8Kendgg+t2dNRXON42suFXBLcrEuMoXAFCkCiiTZM98EgG6Uh B5i+u0OYfpa99SWeyHWY7qNcudnn2CARmC4P2l/O0bfDEERHcaiuZFzytT2ge61bdCDJnkf6I BtnnespjDv7W4o71I5vyecAKP30V50uDe3mrELhTbQ+Uey2PgxfHqPeC9Kw0ghRcZ4ZX7fkFX WBJx6Juu0doGPUl2+Mj5R2Plf3RWoHy3V8p6qU4Jx8XGNLDe9DdHZYPd4FPgk3qnLWi+C0mAo zgEMFYYivdhsDSp8dzKm2VsWuR0MMgCfkoAn91OdMmiMaCo7 Subject: Re: [NNagain] The rise and fall of the 90's telecom bubble X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 12:33:41 -0000 ------1O32FU5SPLJWGE9MM53TEN057D28C6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Update, mmmh, Virginia is apparently not only for 'lovers' but also for LTE, along the t= rip with the silver line to Dulles, my phone reported 4G, aka LTE, while in= downtown DC EDGE-only it was=2E=2E=2E Regards Sebsstian On 14 November 2023 13:06:39 CET, Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain wrote: >Hi Richard, > > >> On Nov 13, 2023, at 16:08, Dick Roy via Nnagain wrote: >>=20 >> =20 >> =20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet] On Beh= alf Of Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain >> Sent: Monday, November 13, 2023 6:15 AM >> To: Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the technical aspects h= eard this time! >> Cc: Sebastian Moeller >> Subject: Re: [NNagain] The rise and fall of the 90's telecom bubble >> =20 >> Hi Jason, >> =20 >> =20 >> > On Nov 13, 2023, at 08:54, Livingood, Jason via Nnagain wrote: >> >=20 >> > > Would love to spend some time thinking together about what a smart = manufacturing system would look like in terms of connectivity, latency, com= pute availability, anything that occurs to you=2E I know a guy who does dev= ops for factories, and he has amazing stories -- might be good to make that= connection as well=2E=20 >> > =20 >> > One of the L4S (low latency, low loss, scalable throughput) demos tha= t Nokia did at a recent IETF hackathon showed a simulated 5G access network= to do low latency remote control of cranes in an industrial port facility= =2E It seemed like one of their points was that you could remotely operate = cargo container movements with the crane via a remote workforce over a low = delay network connection - even with fairly limited bandwidth (they=E2=80= =99d adjust the throughput down to just a few hundred kbps)=2E >> > =20 >> > While they did not say much more, I could envision a port operator be= ing able to gain more efficiency by enabling a skilled operator to control = cranes at several ports around the world on an as-needed basis (vs=2E being= based in 1 port and having some downtime or low utilization of their skill= s/training), even from the comfort of home=2E >> =20 >> =20 >> I would stop doing business with such ports=2E=2E=2E there clearl= y are accidents (or sabotage/jamming) just waiting to happen using wireless= connections for such use-cases=2E=2E=2E Yes, I understand that that is wha= t Nokia sells, so everything looks like a nail to them, but really "caveat = emptor", just because something can be done does not mean it should be done= as well=2E=2E=2E=20 >> =20 >> Regards >> Sebastian >> =20 >> P=2ES=2E: Currently in the US for a conference, getting reminded how sh= itty GSM/LTE can be, heck the conference WiFi (with 25K attendees) is more = responsive than GSM=2E=2E=2E I am sure 5G might be better, but my phone is = LTE only=2E=2E=2E >> [RR] Welcome to the =E2=80=9Cclub=E2=80=9D! We in the US have been dea= ling with this for over 30 years =E2=80=A6 why you ask???? =2E=2E=2E answer= =E2=80=A6 CDMA and the IPR behind it! It was and still is =E2=80=9Call ab= out the money!=E2=80=9D=2E My phone has 5G and when download rates plummet = to the floor, all I have to do is look at the top of the display, and lo an= d behold =E2=80=A6 I=E2=80=99m on 5G!!! If you believe 5G is going to be be= tter, I have a bridge for you that =E2=80=9Cis going to be soooo much bette= r=E2=80=9D JJJ > > All good explanations for what I see, yet this is happening in the capit= al=2E=2E=2E (but truth be told, when I bought this phone I did not pay much= attention to which bands it was suited for, it is not impossible that it a= t least partly my phone's fault that I am connecting with EDGE speeds, quit= e the throw-back to the 2000s ;) but back then EDGE was indeed cutting edge= )=2E=20 >About that bridge, I hope this is in NY city? > > > >Regards > Sebastian > > >> =20 >> RR >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> > =20 >> > Jason >> > =20 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Nnagain mailing list >> > Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >> > https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list >> Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain >> _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list >> Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain > >_______________________________________________ >Nnagain mailing list >Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E ------1O32FU5SPLJWGE9MM53TEN057D28C6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Update, mmmh,

Virginia is= apparently not only for 'lovers' but also for LTE, along the trip with the= silver line to Dulles, my phone reported 4G, aka LTE, while in downtown DC= EDGE-only it was=2E=2E=2E

Regards
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Sebsstian


On 14 November 2023 13:06:39 CET, Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain= <nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote:
Hi Richard,


On Nov 13, 20= 23, at 16:08, Dick Roy via Nnagain <nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet>= ; wrote:



-----Original Message-----
From: Nnagain [mail= to:nnagain-bounces@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet] On Behalf Of Sebastian Moelle= r via Nnagain
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2023 6:15 AM
To: Network Neu= trality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the technical aspects heard this time!
= Cc: Sebastian Moeller
Subject: Re: [NNagain] The rise and fall of the 90= 's telecom bubble

Hi Jason,


On Nov 13, 2023, at 08:54, L= ivingood, Jason via Nnagain <nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote= :

Would love to spend some time thinking together about what a smart m= anufacturing system would look like in terms of connectivity, latency, comp= ute availability, anything that occurs to you=2E I know a guy who does devo= ps for factories, and he has amazing stories -- might be good to make that = connection as well=2E

One of = the L4S (low latency, low loss, scalable throughput) demos that Nokia did a= t a recent IETF hackathon showed a simulated 5G access network to do low la= tency remote control of cranes in an industrial port facility=2E It seemed = like one of their points was that you could remotely operate cargo containe= r movements with the crane via a remote workforce over a low delay network = connection - even with fairly limited bandwidth (they=E2=80=99d adjust the = throughput down to just a few hundred kbps)=2E

While they did not s= ay much more, I could envision a port operator being able to gain more effi= ciency by enabling a skilled operator to control cranes at several ports ar= ound the world on an as-needed basis (vs=2E being based in 1 port and havin= g some downtime or low utilization of their skills/training), even from the= comfort of home=2E


= I would stop doing business with such ports=2E=2E=2E there clearly are acc= idents (or sabotage/jamming) just waiting to happen using wireless connecti= ons for such use-cases=2E=2E=2E Yes, I understand that that is what Nokia s= ells, so everything looks like a nail to them, but really "caveat emptor", = just because something can be done does not mean it should be done as well= =2E=2E=2E

Regards
Sebastian

P=2ES=2E: Currently i= n the US for a conference, getting reminded how shitty GSM/LTE can be, heck= the conference WiFi (with 25K attendees) is more responsive than GSM=2E=2E= =2E I am sure 5G might be better, but my phone is LTE only=2E=2E=2E
[RR]= Welcome to the =E2=80=9Cclub=E2=80=9D! We in the US have been dealing wit= h this for over 30 years =E2=80=A6 why you ask???? =2E=2E=2E answer =E2=80= =A6 CDMA and the IPR behind it! It was and still is =E2=80=9Call about the= money!=E2=80=9D=2E My phone has 5G and when download rates plummet to the = floor, all I have to do is look at the top of the display, and lo and behol= d =E2=80=A6 I=E2=80=99m on 5G!!! If you believe 5G is going to be better, I= have a bridge for you that =E2=80=9Cis going to be soooo much better=E2=80= =9D JJJ

All good explanations = for what I see, yet this is happening in the capital=2E=2E=2E (but truth be= told, when I bought this phone I did not pay much attention to which bands= it was suited for, it is not impossible that it at least partly my phone's= fault that I am connecting with EDGE speeds, quite the throw-back to the 2= 000s ;) but back then EDGE was indeed cutting edge)=2E
About that bridg= e, I hope this is in NY city?



Regards
Sebastian

<= br>

RR





Jason
Nnagain mailing list
Nnaga= in@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain<= br>

Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain= @lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagainNnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
https://lists=2Ebufferblo= at=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain

N= nagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
https://lists=2Ebufferbloat= =2Enet/listinfo/nnagain
--
Sent from my Android device wit= h K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E
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