[NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster

[NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster

[Matt Mathis]

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About L4S
https://www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwidth

It says something about their target audience that they feel they need to
explain bytes vs bits.

Thanks,
--MM--
Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use force to
apply it to others.
-------------------------------------------
Matt Mathis  (Email is best)
Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.

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Re: [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster

[Frantisek Borsik]

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Well, to be completely honest, I would say its about general public, really
- it’s an article in The Verge :-)

But yeah. Here’s something they should address:

https://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#key-findings

In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a biggest L4S
problem:
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX




All the best,

Frank
Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
Skype: casioa5302ca
frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:48 AM, Matt Mathis via Nnagain <
nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> About L4S
>
> https://www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwidth
>
> It says something about their target audience that they feel they need to
> explain bytes vs bits.
>
> Thanks,
> --MM--
> Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use force
> to apply it to others.
> -------------------------------------------
> Matt Mathis  (Email is best)
> Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>

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Re: [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster

[Sauli Kiviranta]

I find it alarming for the future of internet that there is a trend to
use elbowing techniques to squeeze metrics out at the expense of all
other flows. We know that when nobody plays fair the arms race ends
badly.

Best regards,
Sauli

On 12/10/23, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> Well, to be completely honest, I would say its about general public, really
> - it’s an article in The Verge :-)
>
> But yeah. Here’s something they should address:
>
> https://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#key-findings
>
> In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a biggest L4S
> problem:
> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX
>
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Frank
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> Skype: casioa5302ca
> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>
>
> On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:48 AM, Matt Mathis via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> About L4S
>>
>> https://www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwidth
>>
>> It says something about their target audience that they feel they need to
>> explain bytes vs bits.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --MM--
>> Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use force
>> to apply it to others.
>> -------------------------------------------
>> Matt Mathis  (Email is best)
>> Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nnagain mailing list
>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>>
>

Re: [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster

[Robert McMahon]

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Sorry, this isn't a very good technical analysis. It's a push agenda for AQM. I get that many people's egos are tied to their belief that my algorithm came down from God himself. It's not true though.


⁣Bob

On Dec 10, 2023, 3:12 AM, at 3:12 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>I find it alarming for the future of internet that there is a trend to
>use elbowing techniques to squeeze metrics out at the expense of all
>other flows. We know that when nobody plays fair the arms race ends
>badly.
>
>Best regards,
>Sauli
>
>On 12/10/23, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain
><nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> Well, to be completely honest, I would say its about general public,
>really
>> - it’s an article in The Verge :-)
>>
>> But yeah. Here’s something they should address:
>>
>> https://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#key-findings
>>
>> In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a biggest L4S
>> problem:
>>
>https://www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Frank
>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:48 AM, Matt Mathis via Nnagain <
>> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>>> About L4S
>>>
>>>
>https://www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwidth
>>>
>>> It says something about their target audience that they feel they
>need to
>>> explain bytes vs bits.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> --MM--
>>> Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use
>force
>>> to apply it to others.
>>> -------------------------------------------
>>> Matt Mathis  (Email is best)
>>> Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nnagain mailing list
>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Nnagain mailing list
>Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain

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Re: [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster

[Frantisek Borsik]

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Top story on HN:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38597744

My pick for top comment:



A possible L4S end game? 😁


All the best,

Frank
Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
Skype: casioa5302ca
frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 7:22 PM, Robert McMahon via Nnagain <
nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> Sorry, this isn't a very good technical analysis. It's a push agenda for
> AQM. I get that many people's egos are tied to their belief that my
> algorithm came down from God himself. It's not true though.
>
>
> Bob
> On Dec 10, 2023, at 3:12 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> I find it alarming for the future of internet that there is a trend to
>> use elbowing techniques to squeeze metrics out at the expense of all
>> other flows. We know that when nobody plays fair the arms race ends
>> badly.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Sauli
>>
>> On 12/10/23, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>>>  Well, to be completely honest, I would say its about general public, really
>>>  - it’s an article in The Verge :-)
>>>
>>>  But yeah. Here’s something they should address:
>>>
>>>  https://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#key-findings
>>>
>>>  In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a biggest L4S
>>>  problem:
>>>  https://www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  All the best,
>>>
>>>  Frank
>>>  Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>>
>>>  https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>>>  Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>>>  iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>>>  Skype: casioa5302ca
>>>  frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>  On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:48 AM, Matt Mathis via Nnagain <
>>>  nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>  About L4S
>>>>
>>>>  https://www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwidth
>>>>
>>>>  It says something about their target audience that they feel they need to
>>>>  explain bytes vs bits.
>>>>
>>>>  Thanks,
>>>>  --MM--
>>>>  Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use force
>>>>  to apply it to others.
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>  Matt Mathis  (Email is best)
>>>>  Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>  Nnagain mailing list
>>>>  Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>  https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Nnagain mailing list
>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>

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Re: [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster

[Frantisek Borsik]

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…and I’m adding NN again, because:

No matter which evil end game is actually the one, it will create a quite a
havoc.

Seeing, for example Netflix, participating in L4S trail (they said it was
for their cloud gaming, while at IETF 118) is in my mind the same like
seeing a capitalist, an entrepreneur selling a rope to a bloodthirsty
communist that want to create a noose to hang him on it :-) but if one
don’t see/hear evil…there is no hope.


All the best,

Frank
Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
Skype: casioa5302ca
frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 at 10:52 AM, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:

> Hi Frantisek,
>
> steering this to the bloat list, as I have a hunch my response might not
> be appropriate for the wide audience in NNagain even though this can have
> NN ramifications.
>
>
> > On Dec 11, 2023, at 10:50, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> > Top story on HN:
> >
> > h++ps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38597744
> >
> > My pick for top comment:
> >
> > <image_6487327.JPG>
> >
> >
> > A possible L4S end game? 😁
>
> Unlikely, as that would e.g. violate EU directive 2015/2120 too blatantly.
> My take is more subtle, L4S is essentially a technique that only works well
> for short RTTs and the end game is to make datacenter space inside
> eyeball-ISPs much more desirable and hence yielding higher prices... L4S
> effectively increases TCPs existing RTT bias* and hence makes long range
> L4S connections undesirable/under-performing, and that implies that content
> providers that want to use L4S will need to get their servers/CDNs close to
> the eye-balls. But hey, I would love to be wrong and ISPs jus do this out
> of the goodness of their hearts... (only then I would politely ask the to
> deploy a flow queueing AQM instead of DualQ, as that in one swoop will
> solve a ship-load of L4S problems).
>
> Regards
>         Sebastian
>
>
> *) L4S argues that this is not an increase, but that due to removing
> traditional TCP's excess queueing it just reveals TCPs inherent RTT bias;
> IMHO that is a bull shit argument since the root cause is not important,
> what matters is that with L4S RTT bias becomes measurably worse.
>
>
> P.S.: I think my mail provider marks outgoing mails with too many links as
> SPAM, so I need to make the URLs invisible, and I believe replacing the t's
> in h t t p with plus signs does the trick...
>
>
> >
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Frank
> > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> >
> > h++ps://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> > Skype: casioa5302ca
> > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 7:22 PM, Robert McMahon via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > Sorry, this isn't a very good technical analysis. It's a push agenda for
> AQM. I get that many people's egos are tied to their belief that my
> algorithm came down from God himself. It's not true though.
> >
> >
> > Bob
> > On Dec 10, 2023, at 3:12 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > I find it alarming for the future of internet that there is a trend to
> > use elbowing techniques to squeeze metrics out at the expense of all
> > other flows. We know that when nobody plays fair the arms race ends
> > badly.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Sauli
> >
> > On 12/10/23, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> wrote:
> >  Well, to be completely honest, I would say its about general public,
> really
> >  - it’s an article in The Verge :-)
> >
> >  But yeah. Here’s something they should address:
> >
> >  h++ps://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#key-findings
> >
> >  In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a biggest L4S
> >  problem:
> >  h++ps://
> www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  All the best,
> >
> >  Frank
> >  Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> >
> >  h++ps://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> >  Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> >  iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> >  Skype: casioa5302ca
> >  frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> >
> >
> >  On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:48 AM, Matt Mathis via Nnagain <
> >  nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> >  About L4S
> >
> >  h++ps://
> www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwidth
> >
> >  It says something about their target audience that they feel they need
> to
> >  explain bytes vs bits.
> >
> >  Thanks,
> >  --MM--
> >  Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use force
> >  to apply it to others.
> >
> >  Matt Mathis  (Email is best)
> >  Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.
> >
> >
> >  Nnagain mailing list
> >  Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >  h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
> >
> >
> >
> > Nnagain mailing list
> > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nnagain mailing list
> > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nnagain mailing list
> > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>
>

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Re: [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster

[Frantisek Borsik]

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Hello Sebastian,

So you have shared that "L$S bible"  :-) with the bloat list and I do
believe that even people at NN list should read it:
https://pbg.cs.illinois.edu/courses/cs598fa09/readings/b07.pdf

Heck, everyone in the field should read it. Food for thought, certainly.

*Btw, https://www.understandinglatency.com
<https://www.understandinglatency.com> today was great, hope more of you
join us tomorrow*. Jason will be giving an update on "L4S Field Trial
Experiences", also Stuart "It's latency, stupid!" of Apple will be speaking
and I'm looking forward to my compatriot, Marek Pesta, with CDN77, adding
more knowledge to the CDN field.

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik



https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Mon, Dec 11, 2023 at 4:04 PM Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:

> Hi Frantisek,
>
> still keeping NNagain off-list, no need to infect yet another list with my
> L4S aversion ;)
>
> > On Dec 11, 2023, at 11:18, Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > …and I’m adding NN again, because:
> >
> > No matter which evil end game is actually the one, it will create a
> quite a havoc.
>
>         Not so sure about that, my expectancy is mostly that L4S is going
> to fizzle out simply because it over-promised and under-delivers. And
> fizzling out does not make impressive havoc...
>
> > Seeing, for example Netflix, participating in L4S trail (they said it
> was for their cloud gaming,
>
>         But if we look at the DualQ from the outside we see a priority
> scheduler with little to no organic bulk traffic (yet?) so using this for
> any latency sensitive traffic is tempting. The bigger question for me is,
> does Netflix' cloud gaming traffic actually respond gracefully to CE marks
> as expected for an L5S flow, or if it is using NQB instead is it following
> the eligibility recommendations for NQB traffic? That is, is this traffic
> playing along the rules or not? (One of the problems with L4S is that it
> defines a set of requirements for traffic and then fails to enforce/police
> these requirements, making them pretty irrelevant, but I digress).
>
>
> > while at IETF 118) is in my mind the same like seeing a capitalist, an
> entrepreneur selling a rope to a bloodthirsty communist that want to create
> a noose to hang him on it :-) but if one don’t see/hear evil…there is no
> hope.
>
>         I see less diabolic evil in L4S and more ideologically* driven
> mediocrity...
>
> Regards
>         Sebastian
>
>
> *) Hard to read
> https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=6e7364c67c13fa991c63292b281fac61dfcf40e0
> "Flow Rate Fairness: Dismantling a Religion" as anything but ideologically
> driven...
>
> >
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Frank
> > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> >
> > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> > Skype: casioa5302ca
> > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 at 10:52 AM, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>
> wrote:
> > Hi Frantisek,
> >
> > steering this to the bloat list, as I have a hunch my response might not
> be appropriate for the wide audience in NNagain even though this can have
> NN ramifications.
> >
> >
> > > On Dec 11, 2023, at 10:50, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Top story on HN:
> > >
> > > h++ps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38597744
> > >
> > > My pick for top comment:
> > >
> > > <image_6487327.JPG>
> > >
> > >
> > > A possible L4S end game? 😁
> >
> > Unlikely, as that would e.g. violate EU directive 2015/2120 too
> blatantly. My take is more subtle, L4S is essentially a technique that only
> works well for short RTTs and the end game is to make datacenter space
> inside eyeball-ISPs much more desirable and hence yielding higher prices...
> L4S effectively increases TCPs existing RTT bias* and hence makes long
> range L4S connections undesirable/under-performing, and that implies that
> content providers that want to use L4S will need to get their servers/CDNs
> close to the eye-balls. But hey, I would love to be wrong and ISPs jus do
> this out of the goodness of their hearts... (only then I would politely ask
> the to deploy a flow queueing AQM instead of DualQ, as that in one swoop
> will solve a ship-load of L4S problems).
> >
> > Regards
> >         Sebastian
> >
> >
> > *) L4S argues that this is not an increase, but that due to removing
> traditional TCP's excess queueing it just reveals TCPs inherent RTT bias;
> IMHO that is a bull shit argument since the root cause is not important,
> what matters is that with L4S RTT bias becomes measurably worse.
> >
> >
> > P.S.: I think my mail provider marks outgoing mails with too many links
> as SPAM, so I need to make the URLs invisible, and I believe replacing the
> t's in h t t p with plus signs does the trick...
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > All the best,
> > >
> > > Frank
> > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> > >
> > > h++ps://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> > > Skype: casioa5302ca
> > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 7:22 PM, Robert McMahon via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > > Sorry, this isn't a very good technical analysis. It's a push agenda
> for AQM. I get that many people's egos are tied to their belief that my
> algorithm came down from God himself. It's not true though.
> > >
> > >
> > > Bob
> > > On Dec 10, 2023, at 3:12 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > > I find it alarming for the future of internet that there is a trend to
> > > use elbowing techniques to squeeze metrics out at the expense of all
> > > other flows. We know that when nobody plays fair the arms race ends
> > > badly.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Sauli
> > >
> > > On 12/10/23, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > >  Well, to be completely honest, I would say its about general public,
> really
> > >  - it’s an article in The Verge :-)
> > >
> > >  But yeah. Here’s something they should address:
> > >
> > >  h++ps://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#key-findings
> > >
> > >  In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a biggest L4S
> > >  problem:
> > >  h++ps://
> www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  All the best,
> > >
> > >  Frank
> > >  Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> > >
> > >  h++ps://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> > >  Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> > >  iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> > >  Skype: casioa5302ca
> > >  frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> > >
> > >
> > >  On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:48 AM, Matt Mathis via Nnagain <
> > >  nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >  About L4S
> > >
> > >  h++ps://
> www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwidth
> > >
> > >  It says something about their target audience that they feel they
> need to
> > >  explain bytes vs bits.
> > >
> > >  Thanks,
> > >  --MM--
> > >  Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use
> force
> > >  to apply it to others.
> > >
> > >  Matt Mathis  (Email is best)
> > >  Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.
> > >
> > >
> > >  Nnagain mailing list
> > >  Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > >  h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Nnagain mailing list
> > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Nnagain mailing list
> > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Nnagain mailing list
> > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
> >
>
>

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Re: [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster

[Livingood, Jason]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5724 bytes --]

>“A possible L4S end game?”

Doubtful; latency is just emerging as a new competitive factor – like throughput. I also think – if we care about reducing latency – we should embrace whatever works well and achieves scale (Betamax vs VHS).  😉

From: Nnagain <nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Reply-To: Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical aspects heard this time! <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Date: Monday, December 11, 2023 at 04:39
To: Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical aspects heard this time! <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Cc: Frank Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster

Top story on HN:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38597744<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38597744__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrntyFCpWS8$>

My pick for top comment:

[cid:image001.jpg@01DA2C18.141F16F0]


A possible L4S end game? 😁



All the best,

Frank
Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt24e-KKI$>
Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
Skype: casioa5302ca
frantisek.borsik@gmail.com<mailto:frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>


On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 7:22 PM, Robert McMahon via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:
Sorry, this isn't a very good technical analysis. It's a push agenda for AQM. I get that many people's egos are tied to their belief that my algorithm came down from God himself. It's not true though.

Bob
On Dec 10, 2023, at 3:12 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:

I find it alarming for the future of internet that there is a trend to
use elbowing techniques to squeeze metrics out at the expense of all
other flows. We know that when nobody plays fair the arms race ends
badly.

Best regards,
Sauli

On 12/10/23, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:

 Well, to be completely honest, I would say its about general public, really
 - it’s an article in The Verge :-)

 But yeah. Here’s something they should address:

 https://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#key-findings<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/heistp/l4s-tests*key-findings__;Iw!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt_Jjdven$>

 In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a biggest L4S
 problem:
 https://www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt5RQfEuC$>




 All the best,

 Frank
 Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

 https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt24e-KKI$>
 Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
 Skype: casioa5302ca
 frantisek.borsik@gmail.com<mailto:frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>


 On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:48 AM, Matt Mathis via Nnagain <
 nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:

 About L4S

 https://www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwidth<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwidth__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt4RcaVq3$>

 It says something about their target audience that they feel they need to
 explain bytes vs bits.

 Thanks,
 --MM--
 Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use force
 to apply it to others.

________________________________

 Matt Mathis  (Email is best)
 Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.

________________________________

 Nnagain mailing list
 Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
 https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt1kOEovk$>



________________________________

Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt1kOEovk$>
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt1kOEovk$>

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Re: [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster

[rjmcmahon]

My opinion only and not those of my employer.

I'm ok with people getting paid for doing new work and new innovations. 
I deliver iperf 2 free to all, and to be honest, I may be able to have a 
better product or, at least some public servers, if users paid 
something.

I think Dave & others run into this issue too. Few to no payments for 
their work.

The challenge for us in sw is that the marginal cost to produce (or unit 
value) is basically zero. Then it's the up front costs (or non recurring 
engineering NRE) that drives the recovery. That goes to zero too per 
amortization across millions of users. This is all predictable by Adam 
Smith himself - yet many of us try to defy those realities.

I get that everybody wants free things. But it can be unrealistic and 
demotivating when people demand things to be free. What can happen is 
nobody will do the work or innovation (or be under constant threat by 
their employer of being let go because free things don't directly drive 
up profits required shareholders. Somehow we persist.)

Bob
>> “A possible L4S end game?”
> 
> Doubtful; latency is just emerging as a new competitive factor –
> like throughput. I also think – if we care about reducing latency
> – we should embrace whatever works well and achieves scale (Betamax
> vs VHS).  😉
> 
> From: Nnagain <nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of
> Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Reply-To: Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical
> aspects heard this time! <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Date: Monday, December 11, 2023 at 04:39
> To: Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical aspects
> heard this time! <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Cc: Frank Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet
> feel faster
> 
> Top story on HN:
> 
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38597744 [6]
> 
> My pick for top comment:
> 
> A possible L4S end game? 😁
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Frank
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik [3]
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> Skype: casioa5302ca
> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> 
> On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 7:22 PM, Robert McMahon via Nnagain
> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
>> Sorry, this isn't a very good technical analysis. It's a push agenda
>> for AQM. I get that many people's egos are tied to their belief that
>> my algorithm came down from God himself. It's not true though.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> On Dec 10, 2023, at 3:12 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via Nnagain
>> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> 
>> I find it alarming for the future of internet that there is a trend
>> to
>> use elbowing techniques to squeeze metrics out at the expense of all
>> other flows. We know that when nobody plays fair the arms race ends
>> badly.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> Sauli
>> 
>> On 12/10/23, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain
>> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Well, to be completely honest, I would say its about general
>> public, really
>> - it’s an article in The Verge :-)
>> 
>> But yeah. Here’s something they should address:
>> 
>> https://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#key-findings [1]
>> 
>> In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a biggest
>> L4S
>> problem:
>> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX
>> [2]
>> 
>> All the best,
>> 
>> Frank
>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>> 
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik [3]
>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>> 
>> On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:48 AM, Matt Mathis via Nnagain <
>> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> 
>> About L4S
>> 
>> 
> https://www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwidth
>> [4]
>> 
>> It says something about their target audience that they feel they
>> need to
>> explain bytes vs bits.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> --MM--
>> Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use
>> force
>> to apply it to others.
>> 
>> -------------------------
>> 
>> Matt Mathis  (Email is best)
>> Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must
>> call.
>> 
>> -------------------------
>> 
>> Nnagain mailing list
>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain [5]
> 
> -------------------------
> 
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain [5]
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain [5]
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/heistp/l4s-tests*key-findings__;Iw!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt_Jjdven$
> [2] 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt5RQfEuC$
> [3] 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt24e-KKI$
> [4] 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwidth__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt4RcaVq3$
> [5] 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt1kOEovk$
> [6] 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38597744__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrntyFCpWS8$
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain

Re: [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster

[Frantisek Borsik]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 7554 bytes --]

This has some connection to what the creator of Wondershaper ("Wondeshaper
must die! - I always keep hearing Dave in my head, when I see that word
anywhere :-), Bert Hubert
<https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7139937627448733697/>,
shared today: https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/anonymous-help/

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik



https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Mon, Dec 11, 2023 at 7:51 PM rjmcmahon via Nnagain <
nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> My opinion only and not those of my employer.
>
> I'm ok with people getting paid for doing new work and new innovations.
> I deliver iperf 2 free to all, and to be honest, I may be able to have a
> better product or, at least some public servers, if users paid
> something.
>
> I think Dave & others run into this issue too. Few to no payments for
> their work.
>
> The challenge for us in sw is that the marginal cost to produce (or unit
> value) is basically zero. Then it's the up front costs (or non recurring
> engineering NRE) that drives the recovery. That goes to zero too per
> amortization across millions of users. This is all predictable by Adam
> Smith himself - yet many of us try to defy those realities.
>
> I get that everybody wants free things. But it can be unrealistic and
> demotivating when people demand things to be free. What can happen is
> nobody will do the work or innovation (or be under constant threat by
> their employer of being let go because free things don't directly drive
> up profits required shareholders. Somehow we persist.)
>
> Bob
> >> “A possible L4S end game?”
> >
> > Doubtful; latency is just emerging as a new competitive factor –
> > like throughput. I also think – if we care about reducing latency
> > – we should embrace whatever works well and achieves scale (Betamax
> > vs VHS).  😉
> >
> > From: Nnagain <nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of
> > Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> > Reply-To: Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical
> > aspects heard this time! <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> > Date: Monday, December 11, 2023 at 04:39
> > To: Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical aspects
> > heard this time! <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> > Cc: Frank Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet
> > feel faster
> >
> > Top story on HN:
> >
> > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38597744 [6]
> >
> > My pick for top comment:
> >
> > A possible L4S end game? 😁
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Frank
> > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> >
> > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik [3]
> > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> > Skype: casioa5302ca
> > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 7:22 PM, Robert McMahon via Nnagain
> > <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Sorry, this isn't a very good technical analysis. It's a push agenda
> >> for AQM. I get that many people's egos are tied to their belief that
> >> my algorithm came down from God himself. It's not true though.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >> On Dec 10, 2023, at 3:12 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via Nnagain
> >> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> I find it alarming for the future of internet that there is a trend
> >> to
> >> use elbowing techniques to squeeze metrics out at the expense of all
> >> other flows. We know that when nobody plays fair the arms race ends
> >> badly.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >> Sauli
> >>
> >> On 12/10/23, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain
> >> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Well, to be completely honest, I would say its about general
> >> public, really
> >> - it’s an article in The Verge :-)
> >>
> >> But yeah. Here’s something they should address:
> >>
> >> https://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#key-findings [1]
> >>
> >> In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a biggest
> >> L4S
> >> problem:
> >>
> >
> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX
> >> [2]
> >>
> >> All the best,
> >>
> >> Frank
> >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> >>
> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik [3]
> >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> >> Skype: casioa5302ca
> >> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> >>
> >> On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:48 AM, Matt Mathis via Nnagain <
> >> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> About L4S
> >>
> >>
> >
> https://www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwidth
> >> [4]
> >>
> >> It says something about their target audience that they feel they
> >> need to
> >> explain bytes vs bits.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> --MM--
> >> Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use
> >> force
> >> to apply it to others.
> >>
> >> -------------------------
> >>
> >> Matt Mathis  (Email is best)
> >> Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must
> >> call.
> >>
> >> -------------------------
> >>
> >> Nnagain mailing list
> >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain [5]
> >
> > -------------------------
> >
> > Nnagain mailing list
> > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain [5]
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nnagain mailing list
> > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain [5]
> >
> > Links:
> > ------
> > [1]
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/heistp/l4s-tests*key-findings__;Iw!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt_Jjdven$
> > [2]
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt5RQfEuC$
> > [3]
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt24e-KKI$
> > [4]
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwidth__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt4RcaVq3$
> > [5]
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt1kOEovk$
> > [6]
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38597744__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrntyFCpWS8$
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Re: [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster

[Livingood, Jason]

> In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a biggest L4S problem:

This likely belongs on the latency list, not NNAgain. But in this case, it seems low risk given that there's essentially no deployment of single-queue RFC3168 AQMs of which I am aware. 

JL

Re: [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster

[Livingood, Jason]

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>It says something about their target audience that they feel they need to explain bytes vs bits.

Yes, it is targeted toward the average reader. I actually found it a positive that they explained the basics for readers.


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