From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x52e.google.com (mail-ed1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F9FE3B2A4 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 22:24:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5e56b229d60so5055716a12.0 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 19:24:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1741919078; x=1742523878; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0HwhGg4Y4BJipt6ipzGlIpJVCkiU4xhJpKNF5SuvOck=; b=U9AHadwsLCQmC6s26gX1aL250xOakJ9w/PO4iZ4IsCyPCqKF1NPc6BLsFwbwrVhhrA 9Ubu2VE635EUMZ7WyOaj5BfpKEbj4mrMqXT78ka4U7L0ih18Z2NTDqp3w0STKAa1OaMd OyCAKgP8pGFoD5VFI6yeoPhk8to+z/sRYLxzv2QkX1BJWX/fPN4Ro0G5rAjAMpCKWSl+ YqFyiztGb2jdLegeDjuOcabv/948RaU4vJxPeVXWo7TNqN8dfCL7wFldYSE7gXTS+Lo0 A59cSALRhggylz7zesV7MhO1HeTn4mKBwa29q8o7owldxBib6GzJYgCvApAhKG5KoDoU S1Jg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1741919078; x=1742523878; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=0HwhGg4Y4BJipt6ipzGlIpJVCkiU4xhJpKNF5SuvOck=; b=xD2ZdsWw6UfownA8aYpSvzXTPajFeyml5gJgfLmXhhwaBuMCHqXPjjc6x3xUlfQPhu PE7GuteLIFdxzQkdCIHrLmYiSck6lYYZz65lk7oX9DV8++2iVlg5Ie/f1l53U6w5CUpV oFBE/8GUaVMugFZhyqUHUfJUqqbNUxLni13NSpCGF4rXxZ6oSxAEHWI3upbD9sIMxdzG FqEenLIbEIRrp6YmNPXwTaJxc16I+0TLwkXCe0zQ6eV4SPW4gUUAn1SkWgQJmJ2QV8la LCCiNRhMBP74pb0hDAm4lMGCYgbZhYEAikqOP9LORHZW655Fd+wkeJMtEshKVXVxtRsq uhvg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwWUzFlLFVGCbx5bPOcYTd/XmWVbL+FXt8EXrRrhJ1UoS21Y0LM l8WYCgDliAzPkmF0aI1FGthvvNFXUkuo0UdoPliljRj1Oj2omGmKdmalsQRm3ctIwQccfdJgNJD /QIgmkho7mVq/MLLxk6KVpaalBvOU34Ld X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctRrzkp+cEc7ePfozOIvrhEGLmnXlwR+ZYf6O0jOwqmad9A7vHQYxhj5sSSqRp +NcgX5yF8S7G6rhJtxEVAGNijqGiM5MAmULh9MIvLwCSi8wg/vuTlLW+7GGR4+7HwXVyrQEtOoa Vmi0PDyjJk/hrMw9q6jXgHqDZgRQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGSYoLXy7+XSndxFbkIkXa+droPGGb62XKIO4cukj7XWfBzIYn6rhmCMLPubvbpIh+yqsXXgTMIly+J87sWqGg= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:d38a:b0:ac2:9a4:700b with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-ac31234318amr539710666b.16.1741919077723; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 19:24:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "David Bray, PhD" Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 22:24:00 -0400 X-Gm-Features: AQ5f1JoPF3pHPa92icfCAv7DDn45wmeObYaCYiW4_SODdlRzfe57KaAcAeLIEVM Message-ID: To: Robert McMahon Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= , Frantisek Borsik Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000daf3540630442371" Subject: Re: [NNagain] FCC - delete, delete, delete X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2025 02:24:39 -0000 --000000000000daf3540630442371 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Indeed. Yet here on ground SS7 remains vulnerable and exploitable too? On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 10:17=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon wrote: > yeah, our space walks to fix outdated satellites isn't easily doable > nor cost efficient. > > The parts need to be pluggable, similar to light bulbs. If they need > replacement, just swap them out for the improved version. Or if you > get a flat, buy a new tire (and don't send that car into space in the > first place.) > > This approach works well inside buildings. > > The fiber cables, plastic holders, and antennas themselves are the > only fixed, long lived parts. Fiber is actually better than copper > w/respect to security. > > China is doing this already and we're way behind. > > Bob > > On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 6:38=E2=80=AFPM David Bray, PhD > wrote: > > > > Meanwhile there's Salt Typhoon, Volt Typhoon... also this: > > > > https://spectrum.ieee.org/iridium-satellite > > > > White Hat Hackers Expose Iridium Satellite Security Flaws > > > > Users' locations and texts can be intercepted, including DoD employees > > > > In a recent demonstration, German white hat hackers showed how to > intercept text messages sent via the U.S. satellite communication system > Iridium and locate users with an accuracy of about 4 kilometers. > > > > The twohackers, known publicly only under the nicknames Sec and > Schneider, made the revelations during a presentation at the Chaos > Communication Congress in late December in Hamburg, Germany. During the > talk, they highlighted severe vulnerabilities in services that tens of > thousands of users from the U.S. Department of Defense rely on. > > > > Although the DoD uses a secure gateway to route and encrypt its traffic= , > the hackers were able to see which devices were connecting via the DoD > pathway. That allowed the duo to identify and locate DoD users with an > accuracy of about 4 km using a home-assembled eavesdropping kit consistin= g > of a commercially available Iridium antenna, a software-defined radio > receiver and a basic computer, such as the Intel N100 mobile CPU or the > Raspberry Pi mini-computer. > > > > =E2=80=9CWe see devices that register with the DoD service center and t= hen we > can find their positions from these registrations,=E2=80=9D Sec said duri= ng the > talk. =E2=80=9CYou don=E2=80=99t have to see the communication from the a= ctual phone to the > network, you just see the network=E2=80=99s answer with the position, and= you then > can map where all the registered devices are.=E2=80=9D > > > > Iridium=E2=80=99s Legacy Components Still Cause Problems > > > > The Iridium constellation, first deployed in the late 1990s, is made up > of 66 satellites disbursed across six orbital planes roughly 870 km above > Earth. The constellation, the first to have provided global commercial > satellite communications services, supports satellite telephony and > connects pagers, emergency beacons, and Internet of Things devices all ov= er > the world. Out of Iridium=E2=80=99s 2.3 million subscribers, 145,000 are = U.S. > government customers. Iridium receivers are also frequently used by vesse= ls > at sea and by aircraft pilots exchanging information with other airplanes > and with ground control. > > > > =E2=80=9CBack then encryption was not something on everyone=E2=80=99s m= ind,=E2=80=9D Sec said > during the presentation. =E2=80=9CAll the [first generation] Iridium data= is > unencrypted.=E2=80=9D > > > > In response to a request for comment, a spokesperson from Iridium says, > =E2=80=9CThis is old news. The DoD and others encrypt their communication= s over our > network which address the issues this article raises. There is a reason t= he > DoD continues to be such a big customer and we expect that to continue we= ll > into the future. We have always allowed others to encrypt their traffic > over our network. Our commercial partners have been doing the same for > decades, when and where the markets request it.=E2=80=9D > > > > Iridium replaced its first-generation fleet with more secure satellites > (the second-generation NEXT constellation) between 2017 and 2019. But > according to satellite and telecommunications industry analyst Christian > von der Ropp, many Iridium devices in use today, including civilian > satellite phones, still rely on the first-generation Iridium radio protoc= ol > that has no encryption. > > > > =E2=80=9CThe regular satellite phones that they sell still operate unde= r the old > legacy protocol,=E2=80=9D says von der Ropp. =E2=80=9CIf you buy a brand-= new civilian > Iridium phone, it still operates using the 30-year-old radio protocol, an= d > it is subject to the same vulnerability. So, you can intercept everything= . > You can listen to the voice calls, you can read SMS, absolutely everythin= g. > Out of the box it=E2=80=99s a totally unsecure service.=E2=80=9D > > > > Von der Ropp estimates that tens or even hundreds of thousands of > Iridium devices in use today rely on the old, unsecured radio protocol. > > > > Hackers Reveal Vulnerabilities in Iridium=E2=80=99s Systems > > > > While the DoD uses an extra layer of encryption to protect the content > of its exchanges, other nations=E2=80=99 agencies appear to be less aware= of the > vulnerabilities. In perhaps the most jaw-dropping moment of the hacking > demonstration, Sec revealed a text message exchanged between two employee= s > of the German Foreign Office that he and Schneider were able to intercept= . > > > > =E2=80=9CI need a good doctor in [Tel Aviv] who can also look at gunsho= t wounds. > Can you send me a number ASAP,=E2=80=9D read the message sent by a worker= at the > Crisis Response Center of the German Foreign Office=E2=80=99s mission in = Tel Aviv. > The hackers did not reveal when the exchange had taken place. > > > > Using software he and Schneider had created, Sec also showed a map of > devices visible in a single moment to their eavesdropping gear located in > Munich. Iridium devices as far as London, central Norway and Syria (more > than 3,000 km away) could be seen. > > > > =E2=80=9CWith US $400 worth of equipment and freely available software,= you can > start right away intercepting Iridium communications in an area with a > diameter of hundreds, sometimes even thousands of kilometers,=E2=80=9D sa= id von der > Ropp, who was present at the demonstration. =E2=80=9CThe Iridium signal i= s divided > into spot beams that are about 400 km wide. In principle, one should only > be able to listen to the spot beam overhead. But the signal is so strong > that you can also detect many of the surrounding spot beams, sometimes up > to 2,000 km away.=E2=80=9D > > > > The DoD, von der Ropp said, is looking for alternatives to Iridium, > including Starlink. Still, last year Iridium won a $94 million contract t= o > provide communication services to the U.S. Space Force. > > > > Von der Ropp noted that few Iridium users seemed to be active in > Ukraine, suggesting the local forces are potentially aware of Iridium=E2= =80=99s > shortcomings. The vulnerability of satellite systems and services to > disruption and interference by bad actors has become a hot topic since > Russia=E2=80=99s invasion of the country three years ago. The widespread > cyberattack on the ground infrastructure of satellite communication > provider Viasat crippled the Ukrainian forces=E2=80=99 access to satcom s= ervices on > the eve of the invasion. The incident, which according to analysts was > planned by Russian state-backed hackers for months, revealed the weakness > of Viasat=E2=80=99s cyber defenses. > > > > Since then, the number of cyberattacks on satcom providers has increase= d > exponentially. Global navigation and positioning satellite systems such a= s > GPS have also been put to the test. Signal jamming is now a regular > occurrence even outside conflict zones and instances of sophisticated > spoofing attacks, designed to confuse users and send them to wrong > locations, are becoming increasingly common. > > > > This story was updated on 14 February 2025 to add a statement from > Iridium. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 2:36=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> > >> My opinions: > >> > >> There should be no more linux kernels in the customer premise with > >> Fi-Wi. 30M lines of code and 11,000 config options is a form of sw > >> bloat that's impossible to secure. Particularly since most noone is > >> getting paid for this work. > >> > >> Reducing the radio head/client (STA) density to near 1/1 and shrinking > >> the cell size will minimize the media access latency. Packet latency > >> can use non queue building techniques so there will be no substantial > >> packet queueing delays. All delay will be distance and speed of > >> photons related per physics & spacetime. > >> > >> Our issue isn't regulators - it's that white collar workers and our > >> leadership haven't engaged the blue collar workers, and we haven't > >> kept advancing our engineering. We need to teach fiber installer > >> businesses how to build these Fi-Wi networks so that our kids get life > >> support and productivity capable networks that can be depended upon. > >> > >> And everyone that adds value needs to be paid somehow. Best done > >> through markets. Fi-Wi creates high paying jobs in the trades for in > >> premise fiber installers. > >> > >> I think we lack vision and leadership, followed by execution. It's not > >> a cult thing like Musk's failed prophecies - it's the real deal that > >> impacts our lives. Low latency will become ubiquitous if we act to our > >> abilities. Waiting on regulators is like Waiting for Godot. > >> > >> Bob > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 10:00=E2=80=AFAM Frantisek Borsik > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hey Bob, > >> > > >> > I don't think that improving latency is about mandating of a specifi= c > algorithm - it's about an improvements to broadband definition. > >> > Broadband that servers the needs of us all today, goes beyond 100/20= , > it's should include a low latency, low consistent jitter. > >> > Now, what are the right numbers, that's another discussion. But it's > a discussion we need to have. > >> > I would certainly let market to decide on the tools/algorithms that > will achieve those numbers - be it a Quality of Experience middle box (li= ke > LibreQoS, Preseem, Bequand/Cambium Networks QoE, Paraqum or Sandvine), L4= S > etc. > >> > > >> > As for the other issues that need some love - for example, making > vendors to update kernel and provide updates to routers they sold, that's= a > good thing. > >> > > >> > All the best, > >> > > >> > Frank > >> > > >> > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > >> > > >> > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > >> > > >> > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > >> > > >> > Skype: casioa5302ca > >> > > >> > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 5:33=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > As for "what the FCC can do", "dissolve itself" comes to mind. > AFAIK, it's been over a decade since they have done anything helpful or > useful for any American citizen who isn't the head of a major corporation= . > If you delete the entire organization, there will be no one around to > enforce whatever regs are still on the books so who cares? ... and you'll > save another few 10's of millions of dollars annually which will fit nice= ly > in the pockets of the "good folks", aka FODT. =F0=9F=98=8A=F0=9F=98=8A=F0= =9F=98=8A > >> >> > > >> >> I worked with a CA state regulator in a tech support role prior to > >> >> so-called broadband (actually, internet access beyond dial-up MODEM= s) > >> >> This was post 1996 telco act, just prior to the dot com bubble. The > >> >> lobbyists at the time disliked having 50 States regulating things. > >> >> They pushed made it so the 5 commissioners on the FCC became the > >> >> primary regulators. Many call this regulatory capture. > >> >> > >> >> Unfortunately, I don't think we can get rid of the FCC. Our utility > >> >> poles are mostly regulated by them as one example. > >> >> > >> >> I also don't think the FCC can mandage any specific AQM algorithm. > >> >> That's a long term disaster in the making for sure. Let network > >> >> engineers and the market battle that out. > >> >> > >> >> Bob > >> >> > >> >> PS. Good to hear from you RR - i hope all is well. I've got a Fi-Wi > >> >> project you may be interested in - not sure. > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Nnagain mailing list > >> >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nnagain mailing list > >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --000000000000daf3540630442371 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Indeed. Yet here on ground SS7 remains vulnerable and= exploitable too?


On Thu, Ma= r 13, 2025 at 10:17=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
yeah, our space walks to fix outda= ted satellites isn't easily doable
nor cost efficient.

The parts need to be pluggable, similar to light bulbs. If they need
replacement, just swap them out for the improved version. Or if you
get a flat, buy a new tire (and don't send that car into space in the first place.)

This approach works well inside buildings.

The fiber cables, plastic holders, and antennas themselves are the
only fixed, long lived parts. Fiber is actually better than copper
w/respect to security.

China is doing this already and we're way behind.

Bob

On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 6:38=E2=80=AFPM David Bray, PhD <david.a.bray@gmail.com>= wrote:
>
> Meanwhile there's Salt Typhoon, Volt Typhoon... also this:
>
> https://spectrum.ieee.org/iridium-satellite
>
> White Hat Hackers Expose Iridium Satellite Security Flaws
>
> Users' locations and texts can be intercepted, including DoD emplo= yees
>
> In a recent demonstration, German white hat hackers showed how to inte= rcept text messages sent via the U.S. satellite communication system Iridiu= m and locate users with an accuracy of about 4 kilometers.
>
> The twohackers, known publicly only under the nicknames Sec and Schnei= der, made the revelations during a presentation at the Chaos Communication = Congress in late December in Hamburg, Germany. During the talk, they highli= ghted severe vulnerabilities in services that tens of thousands of users fr= om the U.S. Department of Defense rely on.
>
> Although the DoD uses a secure gateway to route and encrypt its traffi= c, the hackers were able to see which devices were connecting via the DoD p= athway. That allowed the duo to identify and locate DoD users with an accur= acy of about 4 km using a home-assembled eavesdropping kit consisting of a = commercially available Iridium antenna, a software-defined radio receiver a= nd a basic computer, such as the Intel N100 mobile CPU or the Raspberry Pi = mini-computer.
>
> =E2=80=9CWe see devices that register with the DoD service center and = then we can find their positions from these registrations,=E2=80=9D Sec sai= d during the talk. =E2=80=9CYou don=E2=80=99t have to see the communication= from the actual phone to the network, you just see the network=E2=80=99s a= nswer with the position, and you then can map where all the registered devi= ces are.=E2=80=9D
>
> Iridium=E2=80=99s Legacy Components Still Cause Problems
>
> The Iridium constellation, first deployed in the late 1990s, is made u= p of 66 satellites disbursed across six orbital planes roughly 870 km above= Earth. The constellation, the first to have provided global commercial sat= ellite communications services, supports satellite telephony and connects p= agers, emergency beacons, and Internet of Things devices all over the world= . Out of Iridium=E2=80=99s 2.3 million subscribers, 145,000 are U.S. govern= ment customers. Iridium receivers are also frequently used by vessels at se= a and by aircraft pilots exchanging information with other airplanes and wi= th ground control.
>
> =E2=80=9CBack then encryption was not something on everyone=E2=80=99s = mind,=E2=80=9D Sec said during the presentation. =E2=80=9CAll the [first ge= neration] Iridium data is unencrypted.=E2=80=9D
>
> In response to a request for comment, a spokesperson from Iridium says= , =E2=80=9CThis is old news. The DoD and others encrypt their communication= s over our network which address the issues this article raises. There is a= reason the DoD continues to be such a big customer and we expect that to c= ontinue well into the future. We have always allowed others to encrypt thei= r traffic over our network. Our commercial partners have been doing the sam= e for decades, when and where the markets request it.=E2=80=9D
>
> Iridium replaced its first-generation fleet with more secure satellite= s (the second-generation NEXT constellation) between 2017 and 2019. But acc= ording to satellite and telecommunications industry analyst Christian von d= er Ropp, many Iridium devices in use today, including civilian satellite ph= ones, still rely on the first-generation Iridium radio protocol that has no= encryption.
>
> =E2=80=9CThe regular satellite phones that they sell still operate und= er the old legacy protocol,=E2=80=9D says von der Ropp. =E2=80=9CIf you buy= a brand-new civilian Iridium phone, it still operates using the 30-year-ol= d radio protocol, and it is subject to the same vulnerability. So, you can = intercept everything. You can listen to the voice calls, you can read SMS, = absolutely everything. Out of the box it=E2=80=99s a totally unsecure servi= ce.=E2=80=9D
>
> Von der Ropp estimates that tens or even hundreds of thousands of Irid= ium devices in use today rely on the old, unsecured radio protocol.
>
> Hackers Reveal Vulnerabilities in Iridium=E2=80=99s Systems
>
> While the DoD uses an extra layer of encryption to protect the content= of its exchanges, other nations=E2=80=99 agencies appear to be less aware = of the vulnerabilities. In perhaps the most jaw-dropping moment of the hack= ing demonstration, Sec revealed a text message exchanged between two employ= ees of the German Foreign Office that he and Schneider were able to interce= pt.
>
> =E2=80=9CI need a good doctor in [Tel Aviv] who can also look at gunsh= ot wounds. Can you send me a number ASAP,=E2=80=9D read the message sent by= a worker at the Crisis Response Center of the German Foreign Office=E2=80= =99s mission in Tel Aviv. The hackers did not reveal when the exchange had = taken place.
>
> Using software he and Schneider had created, Sec also showed a map of = devices visible in a single moment to their eavesdropping gear located in M= unich. Iridium devices as far as London, central Norway and Syria (more tha= n 3,000 km away) could be seen.
>
> =E2=80=9CWith US $400 worth of equipment and freely available software= , you can start right away intercepting Iridium communications in an area w= ith a diameter of hundreds, sometimes even thousands of kilometers,=E2=80= =9D said von der Ropp, who was present at the demonstration. =E2=80=9CThe I= ridium signal is divided into spot beams that are about 400 km wide. In pri= nciple, one should only be able to listen to the spot beam overhead. But th= e signal is so strong that you can also detect many of the surrounding spot= beams, sometimes up to 2,000 km away.=E2=80=9D
>
> The DoD, von der Ropp said, is looking for alternatives to Iridium, in= cluding Starlink. Still, last year Iridium won a $94 million contract to pr= ovide communication services to the U.S. Space Force.
>
> Von der Ropp noted that few Iridium users seemed to be active in Ukrai= ne, suggesting the local forces are potentially aware of Iridium=E2=80=99s = shortcomings. The vulnerability of satellite systems and services to disrup= tion and interference by bad actors has become a hot topic since Russia=E2= =80=99s invasion of the country three years ago. The widespread cyberattack= on the ground infrastructure of satellite communication provider Viasat cr= ippled the Ukrainian forces=E2=80=99 access to satcom services on the eve o= f the invasion. The incident, which according to analysts was planned by Ru= ssian state-backed hackers for months, revealed the weakness of Viasat=E2= =80=99s cyber defenses.
>
> Since then, the number of cyberattacks on satcom providers has increas= ed exponentially. Global navigation and positioning satellite systems such = as GPS have also been put to the test. Signal jamming is now a regular occu= rrence even outside conflict zones and instances of sophisticated spoofing = attacks, designed to confuse users and send them to wrong locations, are be= coming increasingly common.
>
> This story was updated on 14 February 2025 to add a statement from Iri= dium.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 2:36=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon via Nnagain <= ;nnagain= @lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> My opinions:
>>
>> There should be no more linux kernels in the customer premise with=
>> Fi-Wi. 30M lines of code and 11,000 config options is a form of sw=
>> bloat that's impossible to secure. Particularly since most noo= ne is
>> getting paid for this work.
>>
>> Reducing the radio head/client (STA) density to near 1/1 and shrin= king
>> the cell size will minimize the media access latency. Packet laten= cy
>> can use non queue building techniques so there will be no substant= ial
>> packet queueing delays. All delay will be distance and speed of >> photons related per physics & spacetime.
>>
>> Our issue isn't regulators - it's that white collar worker= s and our
>> leadership haven't engaged the blue collar workers, and we hav= en't
>> kept advancing our engineering. We need to teach fiber installer >> businesses how to build these Fi-Wi networks so that our kids get = life
>> support and productivity capable networks that can be depended upo= n.
>>
>> And everyone that adds value needs to be paid somehow. Best done >> through markets. Fi-Wi creates high paying jobs in the trades for = in
>> premise fiber installers.
>>
>> I think we lack vision and leadership, followed by execution. It&#= 39;s not
>> a cult thing like Musk's failed prophecies - it's the real= deal that
>> impacts our lives. Low latency will become ubiquitous if we act to= our
>> abilities. Waiting on regulators is like Waiting for Godot.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 10:00=E2=80=AFAM Frantisek Borsik
>> <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hey Bob,
>> >
>> > I don't think that improving latency is about mandating o= f a specific algorithm - it's about an improvements to broadband defini= tion.
>> > Broadband that servers the needs of us all today, goes beyond= 100/20, it's should include a low latency, low consistent jitter.
>> > Now, what are the right numbers, that's another discussio= n. But it's a discussion we need to have.
>> > I would certainly let market to decide on the tools/algorithm= s that will achieve those numbers - be it a Quality of Experience middle bo= x (like LibreQoS, Preseem, Bequand/Cambium Networks QoE, Paraqum or Sandvin= e), L4S etc.
>> >
>> > As for the other issues that need some love - for example, ma= king vendors to update kernel and provide updates to routers they sold, tha= t's a good thing.
>> >
>> > All the best,
>> >
>> > Frank
>> >
>> > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekbors= ik
>> >
>> > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>> >
>> > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>> >
>> > Skype: casioa5302ca
>> >
>> > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 5:33=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon via Nn= again <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > As for "what the FCC can do", "dissol= ve itself" comes to mind. AFAIK, it's been over a decade since the= y have done anything helpful or useful for any American citizen who isn'= ;t the head of a major corporation. If you delete the entire organization, = there will be no one around to enforce whatever regs are still on the books= so who cares? ... and you'll save another few 10's of millions of = dollars annually which will fit nicely in the pockets of the "good fol= ks", aka FODT. =F0=9F=98=8A=F0=9F=98=8A=F0=9F=98=8A
>> >> >
>> >> I worked with a CA state regulator in a tech support role= prior to
>> >> so-called broadband (actually, internet access beyond dia= l-up MODEMs)
>> >> This was post 1996 telco act, just prior to the dot com b= ubble. The
>> >> lobbyists at the time disliked having 50 States regulatin= g things.
>> >> They pushed made it so the 5 commissioners on the FCC bec= ame the
>> >> primary regulators. Many call this regulatory capture. >> >>
>> >> Unfortunately, I don't think we can get rid of the FC= C. Our utility
>> >> poles are mostly regulated by them as one example.
>> >>
>> >> I also don't think the FCC can mandage any specific A= QM algorithm.
>> >> That's a long term disaster in the making for sure. L= et network
>> >> engineers and the market battle that out.
>> >>
>> >> Bob
>> >>
>> >> PS. Good to hear from you RR - i hope all is well. I'= ve got a Fi-Wi
>> >> project you may be interested in - not sure.
>> >> _______________________________________________
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