From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x52b.google.com (mail-ed1-x52b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF9E73B29D for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 15:56:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-ed1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-53db360294fso9444981a12.3 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 12:56:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1699995399; x=1700600199; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=rdcIlTbOTA0xYUVYD0v228WoaXkVLcqHMDN2kFT9Lng=; b=AZVdgLVXF8z8y9a4kAlEelWhUN2Z4kxY3QAiK81YUnEFZd9FLyW68SXi03im9Gs7nG pR9vHbQEMAk/rZCb9iGGY1JJPgdDige2fOHAbGtgmMFF8Oc37Ct2CYzNlbMQWeepqt1E ezlQfg6muzyYwRkgJmQWK1px0P/MTK9KtGtSJOLlauQ5H3TiV4g2fWDA7+aYa3RghoHW n54BPwxOn/AmFExAVL1wxab8dddOkCu1ELc4i5HIHra/zLV8YjYnNWpN/PbqoMMFjWHB fQqpS/Z5SppuwB0sqyexIzv/lwIkQt1S4NATWXSAzZ3qs4Flijj183/STL6q94PdlE+o EHdw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1699995399; x=1700600199; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=rdcIlTbOTA0xYUVYD0v228WoaXkVLcqHMDN2kFT9Lng=; b=ozmN7Nmp3MqhAORkfws/yIigzfcXnqE7CuYdgox4Ajl0yumNWXjQzVYAJ+FrOfcUVR ZEZvBxjN+DORKFNwClvpl/xxXdMWHzN4uHm3oFLlTuFYba6mUFGCvQGLLQBq48o7Kb7F VROv4vKNlcrOBD45jr2Bq8GbZV8IK3Am9ixAENkSHei2AndLH5MhQKCWP8YcYCJgTRnl Vly44oiAbVUaKIgUgRGOkF6vPzEopIRFFGTAQhi01zvpNO0OHMnOsfTVlmXPL59MtFbM ipnsgrgCXoihTCyTxFwELxeI24p7RKBOmiBrbB9WLJYOm1iR+gPubik6kdyQ3Os2iOmy wBZg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxlSsU9OSCR92nHZJVw8edSDNmlyOYw7SOsJeS1ATHgrHilf+Ct 94Jax1DVHiOEPR2JLJBuiRn6rH5ckN+Jsc+6L4yRADAZr/8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEFmk61aClJLLTX2HcEOo/IDgYPZdJ+3BFJAkfjcZ1pRGz+y7OzovVEI6BAN7vCtNBsYY+Rd3GGmJX36nU36lw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:138f:b0:540:fcc5:3ada with SMTP id b15-20020a056402138f00b00540fcc53adamr7263058edv.9.1699995399311; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 12:56:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <96DDD887-4AC2-4F11-9B49-5ED6FC3F5FA2@gmx.de> <1F39BCDB-1AE0-45D4-B622-411478465119@gmx.de> <88229433-r4qo-059s-8n2r-8pnpp65p3p27@ynat.uz> <0F1EFA1897A64D639DBD4A9CB99EECE6@SRA6> In-Reply-To: From: "David Bray, PhD" Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2023 15:55:53 -0500 Message-ID: To: dickroy@alum.mit.edu, =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspect?= =?UTF-8?Q?s_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e55748060a230519" Subject: [NNagain] Virtual mtgs and conferences vs. in-person ones (was) Re: FCC NOI due dec 1 on broadband speed standards X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2023 20:56:41 -0000 --000000000000e55748060a230519 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Also a recent Nature study - audio conversations are better at creative brainstorms and ideation then audio+video (over whatever video platform of choice). Aside from the empirical findings, the proposed reason why is video has people's brains trying to make sense of a non-life sized images of talking heads presented to us in ways that our historical evolutionary experiences is going "WTF?" at the subconscious and unconscious levels. There's even some evidence that 2D flat videos actually have the body in a continuous state of alertness for a potential threat - again because our brains are trying to figure out whether these non-life sized images of talking heads are a threat or not? (Stay tuned if there's ever a lawsuit against an employer for forcing employees to endure too many streaming video meetings). Virtual communication curbs creative idea generation https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04643-y *In a laboratory study and a field experiment across five countries (in Europe, the Middle East and South Asia), we show that videoconferencing inhibits the production of creative ideas. * [But also] *By contrast, when it comes to selecting which idea to pursue, we find no evidence that videoconferencing groups are less effective (and preliminary evidence that they may be more effective) than in-person groups. * [And finally] *Specifically, using eye-gaze and recall measures, as well as latent semantic analysis, we demonstrate that videoconferencing hampers idea generation because it focuses communicators on a screen, which prompts a narrower cognitive focus. Our results suggest that virtual interaction comes with a cognitive cost for creative idea generation.* On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 3:37=E2=80=AFPM Dick Roy via Nnagain < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > Stanford did a study a number of years ago on how information is conveyed > between humans. How much of the information conveyed is contained in the > words that are spoken??? Answer ... less than 20%. That alone explain= s > why F2F is sooooooo important ... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of > David Lang via Nnagain > Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2023 12:01 PM > To: Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain > Cc: David Lang > Subject: Re: [NNagain] FCC NOI due dec 1 on broadband speed standards > > It's really hard to overhear a nearby conversation that catches your > interest in > a zoom environment compared to what happens at the 'hallway track' when > you are > in-person > > If all you are interested in is the session contents, then video > recordings > (possibly supplemented by the ability to ask questions) is all you need. > > but good conferences offer much more than just that. > > David Lang > > > On Tue, 14 Nov 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain wrote: > > > Hi Jack, > > > > My argument is this is not a hard or software problem, but a wetware > problem, hard to shake off million years of evolution. And IIRC during > covid, didn't the IETF do online only meetings? > > > > I am not saying video conferencing is doomed, it came a long way in the > covid years and is 'here to stay', but it will only replace face to face > meetings for some conditions, is all I am saying.... > > > > On 14 November 2023 14:27:28 GMT-05:00, Jack Haverty > wrote: > >> In the beginning days of the Arpanet, circa early 1970s, ARPA made a > policy decision about use of the Arpanet. First, Arpa Program Managers, > located on the East Coast of the US, were assigned computer accounts on > USC-ISIA, located on the West Coast in LA. Thus to do their work, > exchanging email, editting documents, and such, they had to *use* the > Arpanet to connect their terminals in Washington to the PDP-10 in > California - 3000 miles away. > >> > >> Second, ARPA began requiring all of their contractors (researchers at > Universities etc.) to interact with Arpa using email and FTP. If your sit= e > was "on the Arpanet", you had to use the Arpanet. If you wanted your > proposal for next year's research to be funded, you had to submit your > proposal using the net. > >> > >> This policy caused a profound attention, by everyone involved, to > making the Arpanet work and be useful as a collaboration tool. > >> > >> JCR Licklider (aka Lick) was my advisor at MIT, and then my boss when = I > joined the Research Staff. Lick had been at ARPA for a while, promoting > his vision of a "Galactic Network" that resulted in the Arpanet as a firs= t > step. At MIT, Lick still had need for lots of interactions with others. > My assignment was to build and operate the email system for Lick's group > at MIT on our own PDP-10. Lick had a terminal in his office and was onlin= e > a lot. If email didn't work, I heard about it. If the Arpanet didn't > work, BBN heard about it. > >> > >> This pressure was part of Arpa policy. Sometimes it's referred to as > "eating your own dog food" -- i.e., making sure your "dog" will get the > same kind of nutrition you enjoy. IMHO, that pressure policy was > important, perhaps crucial, to the success of the Arpanet. > >> > >> In the 70s, meetings still occurred, but a lot of progress was made > through the use of the Arpanet. You can only do so much with email and > file interactions. Today, the possibilities for far richer interactions > are much more prevalent. But IMHO they are held back, possibly because = no > one is feeling the pressure to "make it work". Gigabit throughputs are > common, but why does my video and audio still break up...? > >> > >> It's important to have face-to-face meetings, but perhaps if the IETF > scheduled a future meeting to be online only, whatever needs to happen to > make it work would happen? Perhaps... > >> > >> Even a "game" might drive progress. At Interop '92, we resurrected th= e > old "MazeWars" game using computers scattered across the show exhibit > halls. The engineers in the control room above the floor felt the pressu= re > to make sure the Game continued to run. At the time, the Internet itself > was too slow for enjoyable gameplay at any distance. Will the Internet = 30 > years later work? > >> > >> Or perhaps the IETF, or ISOC, or someone could take on a highly visibl= e > demo involving non-techie end users. An online meeting of the UN Genera= l > Assembly? Or some government bodies - US Congress, British Parliament, > etc. > >> > >> Such an event would surface the issues, both technical and policy, to > the engineers, corporations, policy-makers, and others who might have the > ability and interest to "make it work". > >> > >> Jack > >> > >> > >> On 11/14/23 10:10, Sebastian Moeller wrote: > >>> Hi Jack, > >>> > >>> > >>>> On Nov 14, 2023, at 13:02, Jack Haverty via Nnagain< > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> If video conferencing worked well enough, they would not have to all > get together in one place and would instead hold IETF meetings online ...= ? > >>> [SM] Turns out that humans are social creatures, and some things > work better face-to-face and in the hallway (and if that is only building > trust and sympathy) than over any remote technology. > >>> > >>> > >>>> Did anyone measure latency? Does anyone measure throughput of > "useful" traffic - e.g., excluding video/audio data that didn't arrive in > time to be actually used on the screen or speaker? > >>> [SM] Utility is in the eye of the beholder, no? > >>> > >>> > >>>> Jack Haverty > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 11/14/23 09:25, Vint Cerf via Nnagain wrote: > >>>>> if they had not been all together they would have been consuming > tons of video capacity doing video conference calls.... > >>>>> > >>>>> :-)) > >>>>> v > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 10:46=E2=80=AFAM Livingood, Jason via Nnaga= in< > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >>>>> On the subject of how much bandwidth does one household need, here'= s > a fun stat for you. > >>>>> > >>>>> At the IETF=E2=80=99s 118th meeting last week (Nov 4 =E2=80=93 10= , 2023), there > were over 1,000 engineers in attendance. At peak there were 870 devices > connected to the WiFi network. Peak bandwidth usage: > >>>>> > >>>>> =E2=80=A2 Downstream peak ~750 Mbps > >>>>> =E2=80=A2 Upstream ~250 Mbps > >>>>> From my pre-meeting Twitter poll ( > https://twitter.com/jlivingood/status/1720060429311901873): > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Nnagain mailing list > >>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > >>>>> Vint Cerf > >>>>> Google, LLC > >>>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor > >>>>> Reston, VA 20190 > >>>>> +1 (571) 213 1346 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> until further notice > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Nnagain mailing list > >>>>> > >>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Nnagain mailing list > >>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --000000000000e55748060a230519 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Also a recent Nature st= udy - audio conversations are better at creative brainstorms and ideation t= hen audio+video (over whatever video platform of choice). Aside from the em= pirical findings, the proposed reason why is video has people's brains = trying to make sense of a non-life sized images of talking heads presented = to us in ways that our historical evolutionary experiences is going "W= TF?" at the subconscious and unconscious levels.=C2=A0

<= /div>
There's even some evidence that 2D flat videos actually have = the body in a continuous state of alertness for a potential threat - again = because our brains are trying to figure out whether these non-life sized im= ages of talking heads are a threat or not? (Stay tuned if there's ever = a lawsuit against an employer for forcing employees to endure too many stre= aming video meetings).


Virtual communication curbs creative idea generation

In a laboratory study and a field experiment across five countries (in= =20 Europe, the Middle East and South Asia), we show that videoconferencing=20 inhibits the production of creative ideas.

[But also]

By contrast, when it comes to selecting which idea to pursue, we find no evidence that=20 videoconferencing groups are less effective (and preliminary evidence=20 that they may be more effective) than in-person groups.
=
[And finally]

Specificall= y, using eye-gaze and recall measures, as well as latent semantic=20 analysis, we demonstrate that videoconferencing hampers idea generation=20 because it focuses communicators on a screen, which prompts a narrower=20 cognitive focus. Our results suggest that virtual interaction comes with a cognitive cost for creative idea generation.



On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 3:37=E2=80=AFPM= Dick Roy via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Stanford did a study a numbe= r of years ago on how information is conveyed between humans.=C2=A0 How muc= h of the information conveyed is contained in the words that are spoken???= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Answer ... less than 20%.=C2=A0 That alone explains why F2F i= s sooooooo important ...

-----Original Message-----
From: Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf = Of David Lang via Nnagain
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2023 12:01 PM
To: Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain
Cc: David Lang
Subject: Re: [NNagain] FCC NOI due dec 1 on broadband speed standards

It's really hard to overhear a nearby conversation that catches your in= terest in
a zoom environment compared to what happens at the 'hallway track' = when you are
in-person

If all you are interested in is the session contents, then video recordings=
(possibly supplemented by the ability to ask questions) is all you need.
but good conferences offer much more than just that.

David Lang


On Tue, 14 Nov 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain wrote:

> Hi Jack,
>
> My argument is this is not a hard or software problem, but a wetware p= roblem, hard to shake off million years of evolution. And IIRC during covid= , didn't the IETF do online only meetings?
>
> I am not saying video conferencing is doomed, it came a long way in th= e covid years and is 'here to stay', but it will only replace face = to face meetings for some conditions, is all I am saying....
>
> On 14 November 2023 14:27:28 GMT-05:00, Jack Haverty <jack@3kitty.org> wrote:
>> In the beginning days of the Arpanet, circa early 1970s, ARPA made= a policy decision about use of the Arpanet.=C2=A0 First, Arpa Program Mana= gers, located on the East Coast of the US, were assigned computer accounts = on USC-ISIA, located on the West Coast in LA. Thus to do their work, exchan= ging email, editting documents, and such, they had to *use* the Arpanet to = connect their terminals in Washington to the PDP-10 in California - 3000 mi= les away.
>>
>> Second, ARPA began requiring all of their contractors (researchers= at Universities etc.) to interact with Arpa using email and FTP. If your s= ite was "on the Arpanet", you had to use the Arpanet.=C2=A0 If yo= u wanted your proposal for next year's research to be funded, you had t= o submit your proposal using the net.
>>
>> This policy caused a profound attention, by everyone involved, to = making the Arpanet work and be useful as a collaboration tool.
>>
>> JCR Licklider (aka Lick) was my advisor at MIT, and then my boss w= hen I joined the Research Staff.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Lick had been at ARPA for a wh= ile, promoting his vision of a "Galactic Network" that resulted i= n the Arpanet as a first step.=C2=A0 At MIT, Lick still had need for lots o= f interactions with others.=C2=A0 =C2=A0My assignment was to build and oper= ate the email system for Lick's group at MIT on our own PDP-10. Lick ha= d a terminal in his office and was online a lot.=C2=A0 =C2=A0If email didn&= #39;t work, I heard about it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0If the Arpanet didn't work, B= BN heard about it.
>>
>> This pressure was part of Arpa policy.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Sometimes it= 9;s referred to as "eating your own dog food" -- i.e., making sur= e your "dog" will get the same kind of nutrition you enjoy.=C2=A0= =C2=A0IMHO, that pressure policy was important, perhaps crucial, to the su= ccess of the Arpanet.
>>
>> In the 70s, meetings still occurred, but a lot of progress was mad= e through the use of the Arpanet.=C2=A0 =C2=A0You can only do so much with = email and file interactions.=C2=A0 Today, the possibilities for far richer = interactions are much more prevalent.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But IMHO they are held ba= ck, possibly because no one is feeling the pressure to "make it work&q= uot;. Gigabit throughputs are common, but why does my video and audio still= break up...?
>>
>> It's important to have face-to-face meetings, but perhaps if t= he IETF scheduled a future meeting to be online only, whatever needs to hap= pen to make it work would happen?=C2=A0 Perhaps...
>>
>> Even a "game" might drive progress.=C2=A0 At Interop = 9;92, we resurrected the old "MazeWars" game using computers scat= tered across the show exhibit halls.=C2=A0 The engineers in the control roo= m above the floor felt the pressure to make sure the Game continued to run.= =C2=A0 At the time, the Internet itself was too slow for enjoyable gameplay= at any distance.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Will the Internet 30 years later work?
>>
>> Or perhaps the IETF, or ISOC, or someone could take on a highly vi= sible demo involving non-techie end users.=C2=A0 =C2=A0An online meeting of= the UN General Assembly?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Or some government bodies - US Congre= ss, British Parliament, etc.
>>
>> Such an event would surface the issues, both technical and policy,= to the engineers, corporations, policy-makers, and others who might have t= he ability and interest to "make it work".
>>
>> Jack
>>
>>
>> On 11/14/23 10:10, Sebastian Moeller wrote:
>>> Hi Jack,
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Nov 14, 2023, at 13:02, Jack Haverty via Nnagain<nnagain@lis= ts.bufferbloat.net>=C2=A0 wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If video conferencing worked well enough, they would not h= ave to all get together in one place and would instead hold IETF meetings o= nline ...?
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[SM] Turns out that humans are social creat= ures, and some things work better face-to-face and in the hallway (and if t= hat is only building trust and sympathy) than over any remote technology. >>>
>>>
>>>> Did anyone measure latency?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Does anyone measur= e throughput of "useful" traffic - e.g., excluding video/audio da= ta that didn't arrive in time to be actually used on the screen or spea= ker?
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[SM] Utility is in the eye of the beholder,= no?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Jack Haverty
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/14/23 09:25, Vint Cerf via Nnagain wrote:
>>>>> if they had not been all together they would have been= consuming tons of video capacity doing video conference calls....
>>>>>
>>>>> :-))
>>>>> v
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 10:46=E2=80=AFAM Livingood, Ja= son via Nnagain<nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>=C2=A0 wrote:
>>>>> On the subject of how much bandwidth does one househol= d need, here's a fun stat for you.
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0At the IETF=E2=80=99s 118th meeting last w= eek (Nov 4 =E2=80=93 10, 2023), there were over 1,000 engineers in attendan= ce. At peak there were 870 devices connected to the WiFi network. Peak band= width usage:
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 Downstream peak ~750 Mbps
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 Upstream ~250 Mbps
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 From my pre-meeting Twitter poll (https://twitter.com/jlivingood/status/172006042931= 1901873):
>>>>>
>>>>> <image001.png>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Nnagain mailing list
>>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/lis= tinfo/nnagain
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
>>>>> Vint Cerf
>>>>> Google, LLC
>>>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
>>>>> Reston, VA 20190
>>>>> +1 (571) 213 1346
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> until further notice
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Nnagain mailing list
>>>>>
>>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/lis= tinfo/nnagain
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Nnagain mailing list
>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinf= o/nnagain
>
>

_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
--000000000000e55748060a230519--