From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x52d.google.com (mail-ed1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 869723B29D for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2024 10:58:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5becd359800so3282229a12.0 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2024 07:58:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1724079503; x=1724684303; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wGY9+8deq77ZSiv3TkGWCB/zaldaUBepjdW39+N0z48=; b=kjUarNXdhqWpZ1Tb51goFS8SB4iTGQ5lUFIqHtpj79DXkzUynhGZyW6L/spn8cmAp9 MYYCvWSNmfTOUlLrAnhtWgACV4A7w6erokGv8Bsb73UvQIi13tXlbs5Wd8iMQlELax7n VGOFlHCrYB7iDel8OcBiGgyyCUZ0bFzYFh37WjljJtytxBTj/ZCffjkLTR/qrt0q30Bq VvbIzyYrGqipC9tTohR1QRhtcNFrJKBDsfkB8EaXbYV05ghCO38wWCrfuG+BFrZb+LM2 KDGTUbFkAzEDMlTZoKWt66Kv6XLvpdfpsGDdDGZFRWfLXprJoZd5VXRIcgOyQmkeRw87 3EvA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1724079503; x=1724684303; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=wGY9+8deq77ZSiv3TkGWCB/zaldaUBepjdW39+N0z48=; b=n4Pg9da5QyoywCLMOKCKvhFPm4wrWTuF2d9ZlU+WDU45nAwWfwYhOhRIs65CDgbZdV NwkBWYTwor1BwlBuuu8T9lw4g1p4CJhU6mz8NXMmDSnNFoa+Dxnos/cR3k8pDqAvl14W i5B7L2a45wVDSE3elDI8K46xDBJNu/fuBRCbAG6buvwv+iMDL3dg5Qos062YUayMgk7m CCplWa3g8M5xioRpNkZxECeQH/faRpCGuuNEvskjitzwjTTtc+8Ak3lja8YlCSqUgYbj Kk4rkNciX27nI1Pz9HaH3ONgMwudpIEwa25Y3NWRd7lkh6ubWcHIaFM8wBaa5ViR5cza aGag== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwSvQzLSS+kO+Ap2f1gQamMvmxSAlK52GSKtCCzpC3I5Q1zqhkt NiBvAH81kEgDTjejgvy3lhcfAMZVgnf+lVT81PznMZVUKXIaE8KfURsBbHP4zbl1wrWNrtgg9we u1P0ZcMabU3Edlg2qQh/NV/6tge4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHc4SqZiX5gE1aE/QBqyUk5FXLo2bm/CBEUVnrix8EJdUHrRDCpmEMpDjHc3xYV94QPo//dhimQ6OcWM5ptNaE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:51cd:b0:5bf:106:259b with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5bf010626ddmr1471681a12.26.1724079502600; Mon, 19 Aug 2024 07:58:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4CFA1F4CC17A444EAFF9A96F1D7CDB2B@SRA6> In-Reply-To: From: "David Bray, PhD" Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 10:57:45 -0400 Message-ID: To: Steve Crocker Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= , dickroy@alum.mit.edu Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000514b3a06200a8adc" Subject: Re: [NNagain] public service website slowness X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 14:58:24 -0000 --000000000000514b3a06200a8adc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh, that's done and is usually standard practice - the challenge is our Congress separates the authorization to do something from the appropriation to do something. So Congress can legitimately say they authorized a plan to have all these things in place. And then separately when the appropriations process happens - well that's a different Committee. And separate from the authorization process. ... There also are unfunded mandates. Congress passes a law requiring a Department or Agency to do something. But the passed law is then not funded or only poorly funded. However the Department or Agency still has to do the work. Yes, the head of the Department or Agency can go raise their concerns for yet another unfunded (or inadequately funded) effort - however remember Congress approves the political heads and so raise too many concerns and you mind find yourself out of a job... I'm not saying we should be a Parliamentary-like system, however it is worth noting that in our country, both at state and federal levels, those who pass the law are intentionally distinct from those who have to carry through on what is done... Good video on how Congress likes the situation where they tell the President/Executive Branch broadly what to do (and not do) by law, yet also absolve themselves from having to pass a correspondingly logical budget for those prescribed activities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DKIbkoop4AYE On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 10:48=E2=80=AFAM Steve Crocker = wrote: > Time: Many years ago > Place: Living room > Actors: My grandfather, my father, me > > My grandfather, observing that I was about to turn 16, generously offered > to provide funds to buy me a used car. > My father quickly interceded. "Not so fast." "What about gas, > maintenance, etc?" > The discussion continued, reaching a decision that I should take a > part time job. > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > Why not address this problem head on? Do not present plans to Congress > for upgrades, new capabilities, etc. unless the plan includes > appropriate funding for maintenance and upgrades. > > Steve > > SceneLiving room discussion > > On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 10:41=E2=80=AFAM David Bray, PhD via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> Part of the challenge is that several government websites usually only >> have a budget allocated to launch them - and then they collect dust (the >> O&M long-tail). So the lament is that a website that was made 18-25 year= s >> ago is slow to load nowadays (keeping in mind that client-side javascrip= t >> wasn't really an option back then either). >> >> A much bigger problem is making sure legislators when they appropriate >> funds for a project that is intended to continue for multiple decades - >> those appropriators need to also include in that budget continuous >> refreshes to both the web UI/UX as well as the security posture. That's = the >> other side of the issue, when legacy technology isn't funded IT security >> postures get progressively worse as sites get more and more out of date. >> >> Meanwhile we also need to encourage ways for continuous updates to both >> the UI/UX and the security to be done that aren't captured by incumbents >> who use this knowledge of the ins and outs of both the technology system= s >> and associated human systems to charge inflated prices to keep things >> updated too? >> >> ... and this isn't only for government organizations. >> >> Ask Delta about their IT infrastructure and how when >> Crowdstrike/Microsoft Cloud hiccupped, how that created a ripple effect = for >> them and their UI/UX too. O&M tied to legacy IT does have substantial >> impacts. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 12:03=E2=80=AFAM Dick Roy via Nnagain < >> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >> >>> Speed is not the problem =E2=80=A6 it=E2=80=99s how information to be t= ransmitted is >>> encoded and more importantly, how much redundant info is being sent. I= t=E2=80=99s >>> the MS mindset =E2=80=A6 give me a faster processor and more memory and= I=E2=80=99ll give >>> you more bloated code to fill it up! When you put kindergarteners in >>> charge, you get a kindergarten solution! JJJ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:* Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] *On >>> Behalf Of *Dave Taht via Nnagain >>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 18, 2024 7:03 PM >>> *To:* Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the technical aspects >>> heard this time!; bloat >>> *Cc:* Dave Taht >>> *Subject:* [NNagain] public service website slowness >>> >>> >>> >>> This was a damning analysis of many government websites' speed. >>> >>> >>> >>> https://infrequently.org/2024/08/object-lesson/#the-golden-wait >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nnagain mailing list >>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >> > > > -- > Sent by a Verified > [image: Sent by a Verified sender] > > sender > --000000000000514b3a06200a8adc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Oh, that's done and is usually standard practice = - the challenge is our Congress separates the authorization to do something= from the appropriation to do something.

So C= ongress can legitimately say they authorized a plan to have all these thing= s in place.

And then separately when the appr= opriations process happens - well that's a different Committee. And sep= arate from the authorization process.

... The= re also are unfunded mandates. Congress passes a law requiring a Department= or Agency to do something.

But the passed la= w is then not funded or only poorly funded. However the Department or Agenc= y still has to do the work. Yes, the head of the Department or Agency can g= o raise their concerns for yet another unfunded (or inadequately funded) ef= fort - however remember Congress approves the political heads and so raise = too many concerns and you mind find yourself out of a job...=C2=A0

I'm not saying we should be a Parliamentary-like syste= m, however it is worth noting that in our country, both at state and federa= l levels, those who pass the law are intentionally distinct from those who = have to carry through on what is done...

Good= video on how Congress likes the situation where they tell the President/Ex= ecutive Branch broadly what to do (and not do) by law, yet also absolve the= mselves from having to pass a correspondingly logical budget for those pres= cribed activities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DKIbkoop4AYE
=



On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 10:48=E2=80=AFAM Stev= e Crocker <steve= @shinkuro.com> wrote:
Time: Many years ag= o
Place: Living room
Actors: My grandfather, my father, me

My grandfather, observing that I was = about to turn 16, generously offered to provide funds to buy me a used car.=
My father quickly interceded.=C2=A0 "N= ot so fast."=C2=A0 "What about gas, maintenance, etc?"
=
The discussion continued, reaching a decision=C2= =A0that I should take a part=C2=A0time job.
=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

Why not= address this problem head on?=C2=A0 Do not present plans to Congress for u= pgrades, new capabilities, etc. unless the plan includes appropriate=C2=A0f= unding for maintenance=C2=A0and upgrades.
Steve

=
SceneLiving room discussion

=
On Mon, Au= g 19, 2024 at 10:41=E2=80=AFAM David Bray, PhD via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.buffer= bloat.net> wrote:
Part of the challenge is that several gove= rnment websites usually only have a budget allocated to launch them - and t= hen they collect dust (the O&M long-tail). So the lament is that a webs= ite that was made 18-25 years ago is slow to load nowadays (keeping in mind= that client-side javascript wasn't really an option back then either).=

A much bigger problem is making sure legisla= tors when they appropriate funds for a project that is intended to continue= for multiple decades - those appropriators need to also include in that bu= dget continuous refreshes to both the web UI/UX as well as the security pos= ture. That's the other side of the issue, when legacy technology isn= 9;t funded IT security postures get progressively worse as sites get more a= nd more out of date.

Meanwhile we also need t= o encourage ways for continuous updates to both the UI/UX and the security = to be done that aren't captured by incumbents who use this knowledge of= the ins and outs of both the technology systems and associated human syste= ms to charge inflated prices to keep things updated too?
... and this isn't only for government organizations.
<= /div>

Ask Delta about their IT infrastructure and how wh= en Crowdstrike/Microsoft Cloud hiccupped, how that created a ripple effect = for them and their UI/UX too. O&M tied to legacy IT does have substanti= al impacts.



On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at= 12:03=E2=80=AFAM Dick Roy via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wr= ote:

Speed is not the pro= blem =E2=80=A6 it=E2=80=99s how information to be transmitted is encoded and more importantly, how much redundant info = is being sent.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s the MS mindset =E2=80=A6 give me a faster processo= r and more memory and I=E2=80=99ll give you more bloated code to fill it up! When you put kindergarteners in c= harge, you get a kindergarten solution! JJJ=

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

From:<= font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"> Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of Dave Taht via Nnagain
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 202= 4 7:03 PM
To: Network Neutrality is ba= ck! Let=C2=B4s make the technical aspects heard this time!; bloat
Cc: Dave Taht
Subject: [NNagain] public se= rvice website slowness

=C2=A0

This was a damning analysis of many government website= s' speed.

=C2=A0

https://infrequently.org/2024/08/ob= ject-lesson/#the-golden-wait


=C2=A0

--

=C2=A0

Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos

_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain


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Sent by a Verified
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