From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lf1-x132.google.com (mail-lf1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27CF73CB38 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2024 19:16:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-lf1-x132.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-50eac018059so2924231e87.0 for ; Mon, 08 Jan 2024 16:16:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1704759416; x=1705364216; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=N5Uk8X+bveJh9P7lzJy3Z0liS0pDbxWI1/u1JYL+9nU=; b=Ep2DyaH/ZpfIgCtsGCITp95nKsViJRMkDL3jVRWxooQC9/yr9MTICIQ+BcON6zH8cX +HKcWwqmJ8+dMd080lDlOmQZWwLkqoxG8j26iBkSo2vFWJilTWtdgxSywPPLyHTNeE0E pJfRxtXBmxiGn8oPMbjiSYhPQjMH7bNl4rS9+pznWzU7fRfet29GZkQJf7HmAhYCZh0p Oxfau4b8yykzfW9z4cWxXZzwwmY30O5kwEcJq1wrLqRdPLwjlKRTvZPJYV+gyjM/vrT2 68wH+7Hs8+mJDsp/g619XKwHamnofG+M7IbbgfI4Gr77cJQGahD5GHz8dEemaYQ/w9Uy pN/w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1704759416; x=1705364216; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=N5Uk8X+bveJh9P7lzJy3Z0liS0pDbxWI1/u1JYL+9nU=; b=tMrehA7tUZag/uYsiASiaUnIXyuJaozKmWvjj4aQlVeD6gfIcWDEy75F5mCQ0dJRrZ OIai/q3f439Zi+RIx2Tt0UU+nKXmSUu0tvSsvwtLn9NbB9BNABeruWrsKgtVfzaWFtCb hpI36mUUV28i+PX9nKPIVxp27XIGcoVqOajzZryGXC6LIi2R7zMivSxrBLzfHhTxNQ5z E6TLGswP6SbFG3gqtv4ZAgvPbvLZrzeKoiWB315LzMQQF/6vWVf2NKfjpnzR2A8bd0s7 n+BA25zcEbhByCBrCRE+sa84je693uTfstE94Tpa42qktN19fg27yf4F5SylN1nu/SZJ SE4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxEeKOMdGtJQbkRFEC7qSL3AhAXZ26Jgg8ix2MbhowWWXpNzmiD XVcjRgnx/mf88DlSZoybHQCkkLJgJo2lfXhU2SabSfMQWRWCrA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEuMTzNjB1b0fHJXJOOTp/xSx11INXhna69N5sd1XX5j9DcADJTnTRi8gtBDwJs7CdR6yt3TllKZYFIGY3cDQQ= X-Received: by 2002:a19:6550:0:b0:50e:6878:a7a5 with SMTP id c16-20020a196550000000b0050e6878a7a5mr1706049lfj.55.1704759415594; Mon, 08 Jan 2024 16:16:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "David Bray, PhD" Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2024 19:16:18 -0500 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000064e58c060e783b75" Subject: Re: [NNagain] The growing challenges of discerning authentic vs. inauthentic information and identity X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2024 00:16:59 -0000 --00000000000064e58c060e783b75 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Also signatures and the like only work for things where you actively attest. What if it's a supposed photo, video, or other claims that a person did (or did not do) something. Sadly we know eyewitness testimony actually is replete with errors... which is why heretofore "roll the video tape" (you're at least a Gen X'er or older if you recall video tapes) has been what courts relied upon: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/ What do we do if that's now questioned? Watermarking of photos, audio, and videos can be overcome - and, sadly, may actually super-empower either surveillance states or authoritarian states to "control" media. So free and pluralistic societies will be especially challenged here? On Mon, Jan 8, 2024 at 5:08=E2=80=AFPM David Lang via Nnagain < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > signatures work, but how do you know what signatures to trust? the curren= t > approach of 'trust signatures where they have paid one of a few companies= ' > is > not going to work. There will need to be some sort of decentralized > reputation > system where you can pick who you trust > > Yes, some people will chose to trust people who feed them fakes. That is > better > than giving any one entity the ability to declare anything as "true, don'= t > you > dare question it" (as we have seen over the last few years) > > David Lang > > > On Mon, 8 Jan 2024, Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2024 15:17:12 -0500 > > From: Dave Taht via Nnagain > > To: Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the technical aspects h= eard > this > > time! > > Cc: Dave Taht > > Subject: Re: [NNagain] The growing challenges of discerning authentic v= s. > > inauthentic information and identity > > > > Basically I am interested in the intersection between politics and the > > internet in the context of this list, which is broader than the NN > > issue. So I appreciate monday conversation starters like these. > > > > In my case, I often have to revert to thinking about the present in > > terms of what used to be science fiction. "Interface" - upon > > cogitating about what the coming election will look like came to mind > > - https://www.amazon.com/Interface-Stephen-Bury/dp/0553572407 > > > > When I first saw the deepfakes Pr0n phenomenon a few years ago, I had > > my oh-ghu moment, as I realized once tools like that got into > > everyone's hands the truth and authenticity of any form of media begin > > to vanish, and the recent rise of the LLMs *almost* put the finish to > > it. Thankfully the LLMs (so far) have a terrible tendency to > > hallucinate which is often easily detectable, and overall, the > > technoliterati have managed to expel really bad ideas like > > crypto-grift, web3, and so on in the last few years. Web3 investment > > is down 70% this year... > > > > I now wish very much that the concept of "whuffie" existed in the real > > world, but the flight to mastodon, twitter's addition of community > > notes, most of newspapers moving to a for-pay model, and in general, > > the innoculation of the populace at large to distrust everything they > > learn on line is well underway which I find some comfort in. > > > > Promoting widespread skepticism and disbelief are powerful tools, but > > trying to find guidelines to what is actually truthful harder. For > > example, I read wikipedia's talk page on everything controversial. Too > > few do that. I recently sat through fox news with my mom, because her > > blood pressure was too low, and it served well to "improve" that, and > > me, take a lisinopril. > > > > Life's just a ride, tho, you know? > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_and_Out_in_the_Magic_Kingdom > > > > On Wed, Jan 3, 2024 at 9:32=E2=80=AFAM David Bray, PhD via Nnagain > > wrote: > >> > >> Dear NNAgain=E2=80=99ers, > >> > >> Today on a different listserv, I joined a discussion on what I sense > will be a pressing issue across multiple sectors in 2024. I recognize thi= s > is not NN-related and so if it isn=E2=80=99t of interest, I apologize in = advance. > However as most of us have technology background here, my sense is we > generally have a better sense of the looming issue than non-technical fol= ks > at the moment. Below I outline some of the contours of the evolving probl= em > space, and invite each of you to share your thoughts as I sense the > diversity of perspectives here might help with brainstorming potential > solutions necessary for civil societies to continue: > >> > >> Premise: We are at the precipice of an extended era where > inauthenticity vs. authenticity will be difficult to discern, that that > involves multiple forms of content including biometrics and more. > >> > >> In isolated pockets, governments are becoming aware of this - however > it=E2=80=99s going to be really difficult for pluralistic societies like = the U.S. > where any of the Estates that traditionally would have a role to play in > verifying the authentic vs. inauthentic nature of something have had publ= ic > trust in them as arbiters eroding. And it doesn=E2=80=99t help that both = politics > and advertisement rely on presenting things as 100% authentic when they= =E2=80=99re > often only somewhat so (or, to be more generous, mix facts with lots of > beliefs). > >> > >> Not supporting autocracies, however they have a bit of a =E2=80=9Chome= field=E2=80=9D > advantage here because there is only one singular narrative - and anyone > who questions it can be fired/isolated, imprisoned/disappeared, or > killed/executed. Tools of such regimes, to include filtering, censorship, > and repression - will be used to ensure only one narrative (authentic or > not, mostly likely the latter) is seen by a majority of their population. > Pluralistic societies will have it much harder, and the last ten years wi= ll > pale in comparison to the challenges of sensemaking in a world flooded by > both media and mediums of questionable authenticity. > >> > >> Back in 2019-2020, I did my darnest to connect Pablo and an additional > People-Centered Internet expert with Salesforce that has a lot of CRM dat= a > with the proposal that SF could provide a feature where, as part of the > CRM, =E2=80=9Cout of band=E2=80=9D questions could be included to do some= sort of > additional level of trust that the entity on the other end was who they > claimed to be. Unfortunately that pitch was overshadowed by larger concer= ns > that SF=E2=80=99s software, give some of its features, could be misused i= n ways not > intended by them (think about ways akin to Cambridge Analytica) and they > were trying to figure out how they could incorporate features to prevent > actors from misusing/abusing their software in ways not intended by them = as > a company. > >> > >> 2024 is going to be hard. Manipulation of what people appear to see, > hear, sense - and thus know - is becoming sadly easier. > >> > >> Meanwhile understanding of the importance of triangulation, > triangulation, triangulation from different perspective to discern > authenticity vs. inauthenticity remains time-consuming and hard. Perhaps = we > need to consider standing up private sector Dun & Bradstreet-like entitie= s > for identity and other important adjudicatory functions - however that > doesn=E2=80=99t immediately solve the issue of how to help the public in = a would > experiencing a flood of questionable content, information, and identities= ? > And who =E2=80=9Cwatches=E2=80=9D the adjudicators? > >> > >> David Bray, PhD Principal, LeadDoAdapt Ventures, Inc. > >> Loomis Innovation Council Co-Chair & Distinguished Fellow > >> Henry S. Stimson Center, Business Executives for National Security > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nnagain mailing list > >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > > > > > > > -- > > 40 years of net history, a couple songs: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DD9RGX6QFm5E > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > > _______________________________________________ > > Nnagain mailing list > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --00000000000064e58c060e783b75 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Also signatures and the like only work for things whe= re you actively attest.

What if it's a su= pposed photo, video, or other claims that a person did (or did not do) some= thing. Sadly we know eyewitness testimony actually is replete with errors..= . which is why heretofore "roll the video tape" (you're at le= ast a Gen X'er or older if you recall video tapes) has been what courts= relied upon: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-= it/

What do we do if that's now questioned= ? Watermarking of photos, audio, and videos can be overcome - and, sadly, m= ay actually super-empower either surveillance states or authoritarian state= s to "control" media. So free and pluralistic societies will be e= specially challenged here?


On Mon, Jan 8, 2024 at = 5:08=E2=80=AFPM David Lang via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
signatures work, but how do y= ou know what signatures to trust? the current
approach of 'trust signatures where they have paid one of a few compani= es' is
not going to work. There will need to be some sort of decentralized reputat= ion
system where you can pick who you trust

Yes, some people will chose to trust people who feed them fakes. That is be= tter
than giving any one entity the ability to declare anything as "true, d= on't you
dare question it" (as we have seen over the last few years)

David Lang


On Mon, 8 Jan 2024, Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote:

> Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2024 15:17:12 -0500
> From: Dave Taht via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> To: Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the technical aspects = heard this
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0time! <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Cc: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NNagain] The growing challenges of discerning authentic = vs.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0inauthentic information and identity
>
> Basically I am interested in the intersection between politics and the=
> internet in the context of this list, which is broader than the NN
> issue. So I appreciate monday conversation starters like these.
>
> In my case, I often have to revert to thinking about the present in > terms of what used to be science fiction. "Interface" - upon=
> cogitating about what the coming election will look like came to mind<= br> > -=C2=A0 https://www.amazon.com/Inter= face-Stephen-Bury/dp/0553572407
>
> When I first saw the deepfakes Pr0n phenomenon a few years ago, I had<= br> > my oh-ghu moment, as I realized once tools like that got into
> everyone's hands the truth and authenticity of any form of media b= egin
> to vanish, and the recent rise of the LLMs *almost* put the finish to<= br> > it. Thankfully the LLMs (so far) have a terrible tendency to
> hallucinate which is often easily detectable, and overall, the
> technoliterati have managed to expel really bad ideas like
> crypto-grift, web3, and so on in the last few years. Web3 investment > is down 70% this year...
>
> I now wish very much that the concept of "whuffie" existed i= n the real
> world, but the flight to mastodon, twitter's addition of community=
> notes, most of newspapers moving to a for-pay model, and in general, > the innoculation of the populace at large to distrust everything they<= br> > learn on line is well underway which I find some comfort in.
>
> Promoting widespread skepticism and disbelief are powerful tools, but<= br> > trying to find guidelines to what is actually truthful harder. For
> example, I read wikipedia's talk page on everything controversial.= Too
> few do that. I recently sat through fox news with my mom, because her<= br> > blood pressure was too low, and it served well to "improve" = that, and
> me, take a lisinopril.
>
> Life's just a ride, tho, you know?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do= wn_and_Out_in_the_Magic_Kingdom
>
> On Wed, Jan 3, 2024 at 9:32=E2=80=AFAM David Bray, PhD via Nnagain
> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> Dear NNAgain=E2=80=99ers,
>>
>> Today on a different listserv, I joined a discussion on what I sen= se will be a pressing issue across multiple sectors in 2024. I recognize th= is is not NN-related and so if it isn=E2=80=99t of interest, I apologize in= advance. However as most of us have technology background here, my sense i= s we generally have a better sense of the looming issue than non-technical = folks at the moment. Below I outline some of the contours of the evolving p= roblem space, and invite each of you to share your thoughts as I sense the = diversity of perspectives here might help with brainstorming potential solu= tions necessary for civil societies to continue:
>>
>> Premise: We are at the precipice of an extended era where inauthen= ticity vs. authenticity will be difficult to discern, that that involves mu= ltiple forms of content including biometrics and more.
>>
>> In isolated pockets, governments are becoming aware of this - howe= ver it=E2=80=99s going to be really difficult for pluralistic societies lik= e the U.S. where any of the Estates that traditionally would have a role to= play in verifying the authentic vs. inauthentic nature of something have h= ad public trust in them as arbiters eroding. And it doesn=E2=80=99t help th= at both politics and advertisement rely on presenting things as 100% authen= tic when they=E2=80=99re often only somewhat so (or, to be more generous, m= ix facts with lots of beliefs).
>>
>> Not supporting autocracies, however they have a bit of a =E2=80=9C= home field=E2=80=9D advantage here because there is only one singular narra= tive - and anyone who questions it can be fired/isolated, imprisoned/disapp= eared, or killed/executed. Tools of such regimes, to include filtering, cen= sorship, and repression - will be used to ensure only one narrative (authen= tic or not, mostly likely the latter) is seen by a majority of their popula= tion. Pluralistic societies will have it much harder, and the last ten year= s will pale in comparison to the challenges of sensemaking in a world flood= ed by both media and mediums of questionable authenticity.
>>
>> Back in 2019-2020, I did my darnest to connect Pablo and an additi= onal People-Centered Internet expert with Salesforce that has a lot of CRM = data with the proposal that SF could provide a feature where, as part of th= e CRM, =E2=80=9Cout of band=E2=80=9D questions could be included to do some= sort of additional level of trust that the entity on the other end was who= they claimed to be. Unfortunately that pitch was overshadowed by larger co= ncerns that SF=E2=80=99s software, give some of its features, could be misu= sed in ways not intended by them (think about ways akin to Cambridge Analyt= ica) and they were trying to figure out how they could incorporate features= to prevent actors from misusing/abusing their software in ways not intende= d by them as a company.
>>
>> 2024 is going to be hard. Manipulation of what people appear to se= e, hear, sense - and thus know - is becoming sadly easier.
>>
>> Meanwhile understanding of the importance of triangulation, triang= ulation, triangulation from different perspective to discern authenticity v= s. inauthenticity remains time-consuming and hard. Perhaps we need to consi= der standing up private sector Dun & Bradstreet-like entities for ident= ity and other important adjudicatory functions - however that doesn=E2=80= =99t immediately solve the issue of how to help the public in a would exper= iencing a flood of questionable content, information, and identities? And w= ho =E2=80=9Cwatches=E2=80=9D the adjudicators?
>>
>> David Bray, PhD Principal, LeadDoAdapt Ventures, Inc.
>> Loomis Innovation Council Co-Chair & Distinguished Fellow
>> Henry S. Stimson Center, Business Executives for National Security=
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nnagain mailing list
>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagai= n
>
>
>
> --
> 40 years of net history, a couple songs:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DD9RGX6QFm5E<= br> > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nna= gain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
--00000000000064e58c060e783b75--