From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ej1-x62a.google.com (mail-ej1-x62a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 989203CB38 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 14:55:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x62a.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-99357737980so15487366b.2 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:55:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698260134; x=1698864934; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Ohr871BTjA2fHgPwURcNXBdPhpRmuxCTS6crHJmQs3Y=; b=SoqsGIuKvb4EC5zqMu0bO0CQ4WWbayyN9qkHePRVbEUZ4eG0z/UfnXnbt6dTo3jKQO pB3is4YUh9SHox4FEnjQm3+6e1uFfgh8r4iROwFaqNNeoYzRm1cHcKqNaL1U7p9wm+L2 Dx/oUMaDT40NvpySY3W99/dyS392KhehEMTwi27n6KsHsO+CQC0BCH6TMsai8Kwj7XnP Nx1tcJ/8crOFQ9ZMXX+Hrbr31G/QD9o8g640lyms4Xf3b8PPZvdB7S2Gjiu6HSdCYQH1 frLEel8+8AJYY3D6bpYiQhfwjtsCYJeTJWH3L9J27h46bFQJZxPjmPeRLp2DHbKgeCGh spuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698260134; x=1698864934; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=Ohr871BTjA2fHgPwURcNXBdPhpRmuxCTS6crHJmQs3Y=; b=ThoUbE7R3CRBcvuOXwWFzOC9JC2+ZWX6Pwo03+RGOaSabnxO4pHXM3r5D63MvMQn4Y plCUmaEQj2k2eikzkTQLoDzo0pApFYuhGuYZbKPXYJiEIrBoYeu9RsRSrCzDJBNsPEo6 iaZWAtIXt4wlYO+t1daLpaazd6NpjWLEC3ldl106Ta3dCo92zW45PpCu/DnX/ZW0IfKj EHfAhOJXd/WRlJHS2ZG0bQte4+7R+njSbcEOIZUqx9/WbKy/WUgdHIPNpCCnGM4WV4U0 XTMmxLY1ByxtHF0cIS/YcGby2cp6WJkqcqkSrWRGHoEbLxSXEHpeCgwQgLOqEWrZb36V W00g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzCDQi/QX2EXtSlJ9bicCKTT+YAduHpKRLbXdBquOW+20+7MoL0 gzOyvd3Os6CB4aRHHrQiNz7rQxdPE3FYBeEZn5nuyAqRGVtQL3aY X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IE27YgxH9Mz3w7D6FYmSB3jXzijyvGF+JUHp9WWYQzNgGEFHhGt4uYh75Y/laJAvmQhPr9hbc0Qj+6mMHImldI= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:7215:b0:9bf:b5bc:6c4b with SMTP id dr21-20020a170907721500b009bfb5bc6c4bmr13640374ejc.62.1698260133826; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:55:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "David Bray, PhD" Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 14:54:57 -0400 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000003548506088f0079" Subject: Re: [NNagain] RFC: Public Communications on Tech Infrastructure X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 18:55:35 -0000 --00000000000003548506088f0079 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bravo Nathan and very well said - thank you for sharing this, especially: >> the incredible accomplishments of network engineers are totally unacknowledged and misunderstood I concur that technical topics don't get a lot of adequate, nuanced coverage. Meanwhile our (second?) Gilded Age seems to be missing three important things as well - which would be great if more people took the time to listen/seek to understand re: network engineering and IT operations. *1. Listen with Curiosity, Seek to Understand* *2. Avoid Reducing Issues into Binary Positions * *3. Walk a Mile In the Other Person's Shoes* ... here's to helping bridge the gaps! https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/importance-communication-especially-on-going= -david-bray-phd -d. On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 9:27=E2=80=AFAM Nathan Simington via Nnagain < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > Branching from Dave's thread because I don't want to get into the > politics, but I would like to very strongly endorse Dave's remarks about > how the incredible accomplishments of network engineers are totally > unacknowledged and misunderstood (e.g., note the public policy emphasis o= n > line speed over all else.) As such, I'd like to solicit the members of th= is > list to suggest some of the greatest accomplishments in network engineeri= ng > that you've never seen properly acknowledged or appreciated. I'd like to > promote and discuss them in speeches and papers to help get more sunlight > on them. > > *0. Let's get network engineering some applause, please!* > Both recent and historical accomplishments are welcome. I just want to > help get more people thinking about what a difference network engineering > has made to everyone's lives! All technologies, personalities and > accomplishments welcome! > > Beyond this specific thing, in terms of public discourse, I'd love to get > more opinions about how to communicate to the public about the tech > underpinnings of the world we live in now, and I'd love comments on how t= o > discuss and promote any of these topics: > > *1. Infrastructure advances* > It would generally do a lot of good if the public were to think of "tech" > less as purely the consumer-facing side and more in terms of fundamental > architecture and infrastructure. For example, there's really no point > talking about "AI" in the public-facing aspect of end-user LLM experience= s > without first looking at how the cost of compute and transit has gone > through the floor compared to 15 years ago or so. I can't even disentangl= e > all the drivers, but they must include at least: > > - New uses for GPUs driving advances and slashing prices in GPU tech > - Vast advances in back-end cloud (to pick one company, > Sawzall/Lingo/GFS/Colossus plus associated datacenters is almost invis= ible > to the public, and I have no idea what's powering Chinese AI back-ends= ) > - Nuts-and-bolts development in ML/data science that are eroding the > fuzzy boundary between ML done as a planned, discrete query by an expe= rt > over a small, curated dataset and ML as a quasi-autonomous system not > requiring expert queries, given authority over physical devices, doing= its > own ingestion, etc -- "a sufficiently large difference in quantity is > itself a difference in quality" > > This stuff is particularly worth asking about because we are now at least > 30 years into what I think of as "pervasive networked personal computing,= " > now in wireless and appified form, and I think the public experiences thi= s > as just advances that "happen by themselves" in the ordinary course witho= ut > seeing the jags in the step functions underwriting the apparent smooth > curve of progress. > > *2. Security in real-world systems* > Getting hacked used to mean losing data, having devices bricked, maybe > getting co-opted into a botnet, etc. Now it's a lot scarier, because we a= re > increasingly surrounded by always-on, always-connected devices whose > security infrastructure is a black box and which may be trusted with > controlling physical equipment. It's bad enough if your household > appliances are phoning home (where?) with your credit card number. It's a > whole new level of scary if there are possible APTs in the power grid and > whoever manufactured the IOT modem in a transformer is about 8 degrees of > separation from the grid operators. Even if there's no malice intended, > modern grid balancing is a new level of challenging because you may have > multiple sources of generation with immense moment-by-moment fluctuations > in inbound generation, etc., and that's just one category, leaving > groceries, ports, financial markets, building security, whatever replaces > positive train control (PTC) down the road, vehicular autonomy, industria= l > operations, etc. to one side... > > Panic reactions are one thing, but it would be more productive for the > public to think about what their expectations are for how to react to the= se > new capabilities and challenges and then demand that the policy sector > cashes this out into new standards by consulting with technologists. I > would therefore love advice on what you think the public needs to know. > Maybe some kind of public forum that could get press or a white paper tha= t > could get written up in an op-ed? > > On that note, in addition to (or instead of) commenting on this posting, > please consider commenting on the US Cyber Trust Mark proceeding now open > at the FCC (comments close November 10th, commenting link here: > https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/search/docket-detail/23-239). If you'd like to > talk about this off-list, please drop me a line at NS@fcc.gov. I'll let > you know in advance if anything you want to say requires you to file an "= ex > parte" statement so that you don't have to worry about going on the recor= d > unintentionally. This is a fantastic opportunity for the network > engineering and computer security communities to air their concerns in a > federal forum in a way that may bind the federal government going forward= . > > *3. The future isn't evenly distributed* > Talking to a friend who does industrial devops reminded me of this > fantastic postmortem on healthcare.gov's rollout: > https://lobste.rs/s/igt4ez/10_year_anniversary_healthcare_gov. Obviously > I don't need to tell the career professionals this, but tech advances don= 't > necessarily propagate, and if they do, it may be at radically different > rates between different countries, companies, sectors... (If I needed a > reminder of this, I recently had to upload DICOM files to a hospital usin= g > a terrible Java applet that was obviously written so long ago that it onl= y > wanted to upload from CDs, i.e., at a time when you wouldn't have spent > hard disk space on DICOMs. I eventually managed to "persuade" it that a > flash drive was a CD.) > > This ties into points 1 and especially 2, because if we want the full > social benefits of all the advances modern engineering has accomplished, = we > need to get people in "nontraditional" sectors thinking about the benefit= s > of the communications and controls capabilities that are now on the table= . > Everyone should be asking why we aren't doing ML to reduce the cost and > energy consumption for making breakfast cereal, totally pedestrian stuff > like that; if the answer is juice isn't worth the squeeze, that fine, but > that's going to run on a delay because, as the healthcare.gov example > shows, high-value new practices may be invisible to a sector that would > definitely benefit from them. > > Sorry for the very lengthy post, and as they say on the artist formerly > known as Twitter, "my DMs are open." And thanks for everything you all do= ! > > All the best-- > Nathan > > On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 3:22=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 11:21=E2=80=AFAM the keyboard of geoff goodfello= w via >> Nnagain wrote: >> > >> > =E2=9E=94=E2=9E=94https://twitter.com/BrendanCarrFCC/status/1716558844= 384379163 >> >> Leaving aside the rhetoric, I believe the majority of these claims on >> this part of his post: >> >> https://twitter.com/BrendanCarrFCC/status/1716884139226329512 >> >> to be true. Any one question this? >> >> I do wish that he showed upload speeds, and latency under load, and, >> acknowledged some mistakes, at least, and did not claim perfect >> success. Also individual states had stepped up to institute their own >> rules, and I would love to see a comparison of those stats vs those >> that didn=C2=B4t. >> >> The COVID thing I am most fiercely proud of, as an engineer, is we >> took an internet only capable of postage stamp 5 frame per sec[1] >> videoconferencing to something that the world, as a whole, relied on >> to keep civilization running only 7 years later, in the face of >> terrible odds, lights out environments, scarce equipment supplies, and >> illness. ISPs big and small helped too - Their people climbed towers, >> produced better code, rerouted networks, and stayed up late fighting >> off DDOSes. People at home shared their wifi and knowledge of how to >> make fiddly things on the net work well, over the internet - >> >> Nobody handed out medals for keeping the internet running, I do not >> remember a single statement of praise for what we did over that >> terrible time. No one ever looks up after a productive day after a >> zillion productive clicks and says (for one example) "Thank you Paul >> Vixie and Mokapetris for inventing DNS and Evan Hunt(bind) and Simon >> Kelly(dnsmasq) for shipping dns servers for free that only get it >> wrong once in a while, and then recover so fast you don=C2=B4t notice" - >> there are just endless complaints from those for whom it is not >> working *right now* the way they expect. >> >> There are no nobel prizes for networking. But the scientists, >> engineers, sysadmins and SREs kept improving things, and are keeping >> civilization running. It is kind of a cause for me - I get very irked >> at both sides whining when if only they could walk a mile in a >> neteng=C2=B4s shoes. I get respect from my neighbors at least, sometimes >> asked to fix a laptop or set up a router... and I still share my wifi. >> >> If there was just some way to separate out the ire about other aspects >> of how the internet is going south (which I certainly share), and >> somehow put respect for those in the trenches that work on keeping the >> Net running, back in the public conversation, I would really love to >> hear it. >> >> [1] Really great talk on networking by Van Jacobson in 2012, both >> useful for its content, and the kind of quality we could only achieve >> then: https://archive.org/details/video1_20191129 >> >> > -- >> > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com >> > living as The Truth is True >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Nnagain mailing list >> > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >> >> >> >> -- >> Oct 30: >> https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos >> _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >> > > > -- > Nathan Simington > cell: 305-793-6899 > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --00000000000003548506088f0079 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bravo Nathan and very well said - th= ank you for sharing this, especially:

>>= ; the incredible accomplishments of network engineers are totally unacknowl= edged and misunderstood

I concur that technical topics don't get a lo= t of adequate, nuanced coverage. Meanwhile our (second?) Gilded Age seems t= o be missing three important things as well - which would be great if more = people took the time to listen/seek to understand re: network engineering a= nd IT operations.

1. Listen with Curiosity, Seek to Understand=20

2. Avoid Reducing Issues into Binary Positions

=20

3. Walk a Mile In the Other Person's Shoes



-d= .

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 9:27=E2=80=AFAM Nathan Simington v= ia Nnagain <nnagain@lis= ts.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Branching from Dave'= ;s thread because I don't want to get into the politics, but I would li= ke to very strongly endorse Dave's remarks about how the incredible acc= omplishments of network engineers are totally unacknowledged and misunderst= ood (e.g., note the public policy emphasis on line speed over all else.) As= such, I'd like to solicit the members of this list to suggest some of = the greatest accomplishments in network engineering that you've never s= een properly acknowledged or appreciated. I'd like to promote and discu= ss them in speeches and papers to help get more sunlight on them.

<= /div>
0. Let's get network=C2=A0engineering some=C2=A0applause, = please!
Both recent and historical accomplishments are welcom= e. I just want to help get more people thinking about what a difference net= work engineering has made to everyone's lives! All technologies, person= alities and accomplishments welcome!

Beyond this s= pecific thing, in terms of public discourse, I'd love to get more opini= ons about how to communicate to the public about the tech underpinnings of = the world we live in now, and I'd love comments on how to discuss and p= romote any of these topics:

1. Infrastructure a= dvances
It would generally do a lot of good if the public wer= e to think of "tech" less as purely the consumer-facing side and = more in terms of fundamental architecture and infrastructure. For example, = there's really no point talking about "AI" in the public-faci= ng aspect of end-user LLM experiences without first looking at how the cost= of compute and transit has gone through the floor compared to 15 years ago= or so. I can't even disentangle all the drivers, but they must include= at least:
  • New uses for GPUs driving advances and slashin= g prices in GPU tech
  • Vast advances in back-end cloud (to pick one c= ompany, Sawzall/Lingo/GFS/Colossus plus associated datacenters is almost in= visible to the public, and I have no idea what's powering Chinese AI ba= ck-ends)
  • Nuts-and-bolts development in ML/data science that are= eroding the fuzzy boundary between ML done as a planned, discrete query by= an expert over a small, curated dataset and ML as a quasi-autonomous syste= m not requiring expert queries, given authority over physical devices, doin= g its own ingestion, etc -- "a sufficiently large difference in quanti= ty is itself a difference in quality"
This stuff is part= icularly worth asking about because we are now at least 30 years into what = I think of as "pervasive networked personal computing," now in wi= reless and appified form, and I think the public experiences this as just a= dvances that "happen by themselves" in the ordinary course withou= t seeing the jags in the step functions underwriting the apparent smooth cu= rve of progress.

2. Security in real-worl= d systems
Getting hacked used to mean losing data, having dev= ices bricked, maybe getting co-opted into a botnet, etc. Now it's a lot= scarier, because we are increasingly surrounded by always-on, always-conne= cted devices whose security infrastructure is a black box and which may be = trusted with controlling physical equipment. It's bad enough if your ho= usehold appliances are phoning home (where?) with your credit card number. = It's a whole new level of scary if there are possible APTs in the power= grid and whoever manufactured the IOT modem in a transformer is about 8 de= grees of separation from the grid operators. Even if there's no malice = intended, modern grid balancing is a new level of challenging because you m= ay have multiple sources of generation with immense moment-by-moment fluctu= ations in inbound generation, etc., and that's just one category, leavi= ng groceries, ports, financial markets, building security, whatever replace= s positive train control (PTC) down the road, vehicular autonomy, industria= l operations, etc. to one side...

Panic reactions = are one thing, but it would be more productive for the public to think abou= t what their expectations are for how to react to these new capabilities an= d challenges and then demand that the policy sector cashes this out into ne= w standards by consulting with technologists. I would therefore love advice= on what you think the public needs to know. Maybe some kind of public foru= m that could get press or a white paper that could get written up in an op-= ed?

On that note, in addition to (or instead of) c= ommenting on this posting, please consider commenting on the US Cyber Trust= Mark proceeding now open at the FCC (comments close November 10th, comment= ing link here: https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/search/docket-detail/23-239= ). If you'd like to talk about this off-list, please drop me a line= at NS@fcc.gov. I'l= l let you know in advance if anything you want to say requires you to file = an "ex parte" statement so that you don't have to worry about= going on the record unintentionally. This is a fantastic opportunity for t= he network engineering and computer security communities to air their conce= rns in a federal forum in a way that may bind the federal government going = forward.

3. The future isn't evenly distrib= uted
Talking to a friend who does industrial devops reminded = me of this fantastic postmortem on healthcare.gov's rollout:=C2=A0https:/= /lobste.rs/s/igt4ez/10_year_anniversary_healthcare_gov. Obviously I don= 't need to tell the career professionals this, but tech advances don= 9;t necessarily propagate, and if they do, it may be at radically=C2=A0diff= erent rates between different=C2=A0countries,=C2=A0companies,=C2=A0sectors.= .. (If I needed a reminder of this, I recently had to upload DICOM files to= a hospital using a terrible Java applet that was obviously written so long= ago that it only wanted to upload from CDs, i.e., at a time when you would= n't have spent hard disk space on DICOMs. I eventually managed to "= ;persuade" it that a flash drive was a CD.)

T= his ties into points 1 and especially 2, because if we want the full social= benefits of all the advances modern engineering has accomplished, we need = to get people in "nontraditional" sectors thinking about the bene= fits of the communications and controls capabilities that are now on the ta= ble. Everyone should be asking why we aren't doing ML to reduce the cos= t and energy consumption for making breakfast cereal, totally pedestrian st= uff like that; if the answer is juice isn't worth the squeeze, that fin= e, but that's going to run on a delay because, as the healthcare.gov example shows, high-v= alue new practices may be invisible to a sector that would definitely benef= it from them.

Sorry for the very lengthy post, and= as they say on the artist formerly known as Twitter, "my DMs are open= ." And thanks for everything you all do!

All = the best--
Nathan

On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 3:22=E2=80=AFPM Da= ve Taht via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 11:21= =E2=80=AFAM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> =E2=9E=94=E2=9E=94https://twitter.= com/BrendanCarrFCC/status/1716558844384379163

Leaving aside the rhetoric, I believe the majority of these claims on
this part of his post:

https://twitter.com/BrendanCarrFCC/stat= us/1716884139226329512

to be true. Any one question this?

I do wish that he showed upload speeds, and latency under load, and,
acknowledged some mistakes, at least, and did not claim perfect
success. Also individual states had stepped up to institute their own
rules, and I would love to see a comparison of those stats vs those
that didn=C2=B4t.

The COVID thing I am most fiercely proud of, as an engineer, is we
took an internet only capable of postage stamp 5 frame per sec[1]
videoconferencing to something that the world, as a whole, relied on
to keep civilization running only 7 years later, in the face of
terrible odds, lights out environments, scarce equipment supplies, and
illness. ISPs big and small helped too - Their people climbed towers,
produced better code, rerouted networks, and stayed up late fighting
off DDOSes. People at home shared their wifi and knowledge of how to
make fiddly things on the net work well, over the internet=C2=A0 -

Nobody handed out medals for keeping the internet running, I do not
remember a single statement of praise for what we did over that
terrible time. No one ever looks up after a productive day after a
zillion productive clicks and says (for one example) "Thank you Paul Vixie and Mokapetris for inventing DNS and Evan Hunt(bind)=C2=A0 and Simon<= br> Kelly(dnsmasq) for shipping dns servers for free that only get it
wrong once in a while, and then recover so fast you don=C2=B4t notice"= -
there are just endless complaints from those for whom it is not
working *right now* the way they expect.

There are no nobel prizes for networking.=C2=A0 But the scientists,
engineers, sysadmins and SREs kept improving things, and are keeping
civilization running. It is kind of a cause for me - I get very irked
at both sides whining when if only they could walk a mile in a
neteng=C2=B4s shoes. I get respect from my neighbors at least, sometimes asked to fix a laptop or set up a router... and I still share my wifi.

If there was just some way to separate out the ire about other aspects
of how the internet is going south (which I certainly share), and
somehow put respect for those in the trenches that work on keeping the
Net running, back in the public conversation, I would really love to
hear it.

[1] Really great talk on networking by Van Jacobson in 2012, both
useful for its content, and the kind of quality we could only achieve
then: https://archive.org/details/video1_20191129

> --
> Geoff= .Goodfellow@iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nna= gain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain



--
Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/= 0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain


--
Nathan Simington
cell:=C2=A0305-793-6899
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
--00000000000003548506088f0079--