From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lf1-x134.google.com (mail-lf1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D5FF3CB41; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 17:05:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-lf1-x134.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-50bfd3a5b54so1322272e87.3; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 14:05:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1702677911; x=1703282711; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=IK+MYYk9437X+M8lRF5c2Nya6M6mkUDNUgTK95Eux1Q=; b=RR31lNbSknbRq+TBsh9UdOEiNwUGVhj0908NO/ioLUVKktCMvz9I7NY9cf5ZA9V5MC 8gEEQt4G68eopFWWuWLESxSRB+EPgyqIes5k+dQccke1FxXGctLxDlaXitXrxx/nZ/7F 1MfZ7NDu38pHbjm4PZSO2eynRS5lLaDDG0DXLLCuWgWkAIy+BFnw3ekT6N9eewyoSLB9 yNwhmwX6f6F0SV0a9FHBPfmmWZqfohyLUKLqoAUQgStB1xJBgtHm3E1UtJhNkKST5klg nfzZgMM+f13M6boc0eJk+oRpGdTDW+SvVilKYFfFUTVKLdjD7MEfjLs+0CJs01GXr7md ZgRQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1702677911; x=1703282711; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=IK+MYYk9437X+M8lRF5c2Nya6M6mkUDNUgTK95Eux1Q=; b=q+ATJFvtCZRv4u3NkM3utGQBPZ9kZlYJksd4Mg5n9A5UNXeHRHJ/8s/XeuBRJ6Mos4 9pjZx+yHWcvGWV6M//7Uuv+uCbFJtKBIizKWa+D5HtU6HWVlsDQofHQopr+0Robmsei0 ZaIVdVy8VtreXOXbS976Gjw8bdFWhG7eV3CKYHP+FN63TLYt9wb2FNaSX2rOGDOmnNlc WXEqMHe+8HTTLb2twdXbaFW7yE61kBtrbLSA2N1cXKaTItbRPOdqsvtEOuwZccpjoBT8 GC3EiIAbiX3VD8T6vbPxGptGykxmQw7gzVsOJqDLb3UU4iUCvfc90Wugj3YziOQWA4f4 g17w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx97NCufCRF1oNlbsZZXzrNImIbd84yQA3S0KUGyxj24iLlucgS 8WwkyxVTWatr5MSTZqkeqMymGxCjj14KdbXktNuVlZ4jrK8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGxEFlbwHAvr4Jo6XQlzFXbtPWMFkssMSvfZcFwhUUsbjT629r9OCDZgUXH3hsuhX7Hn7h0JWT8Pl+Yna3jMq4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3c88:b0:50e:140e:ca29 with SMTP id h8-20020a0565123c8800b0050e140eca29mr3236510lfv.52.1702677910864; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 14:05:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <55037f9a-bc2c-4bbb-a4bb-47ad30f16190@rjmcmahon.com> <02cc2879-ef99-4388-bc1e-335a4aaff6aa@gmail.com> <18A40E71-F636-41A9-A8A7-0F4F69E3C99F@gmx.de> <650s1558-6310-063q-s5q2-o782rnnoss29@ynat.uz> <471154o6-no08-67or-p1o2-np919ro26osp@ynat.uz> <05ef1cd50d0e0a681b2cd38b1bdeb0a9@rjmcmahon.com> <4p61qp8r-p1p1-r83r-n283-315548o163po@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: <4p61qp8r-p1p1-r83r-n283-315548o163po@ynat.uz> From: "David Bray, PhD" Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 17:04:59 -0500 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Cc: David Lang , rjmcmahon , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000b4774060c939823" Subject: Re: [NNagain] [Starlink] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's RDOF Application X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 22:05:13 -0000 --0000000000000b4774060c939823 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There=E2=80=99s good evidence that physical health can be done over LEO as = long as it isn=E2=80=99t low latency dependent. Of course our illustrious listserv = founder Dave Taht will be quick to point out high latency is also found via ground-based connections too. That said, there is still a lot of research debate on whether mental health services can be delivered effectively over video in general - regardless of LEO or not. The concern is two fold: * video is suboptimal to detect tiny tells and other signatures of a patient developing a relationship with a health provider * 2D video actually is worse for brainstorming and creative ideation. One might say so what relative to delivering healthcare, except the evidence showing that video is worse for brainstorming indicates there=E2=80=99s act= ually a continual subconscious confusion when folks do video calls prompted by the body trying to discern if the one or more disembodied heads are friend or foe. Since we cannot see a person=E2=80=99s hands and body movements we don= =E2=80=99t know if they=E2=80=99re coming to attack us or not. So future generations may look back and decide that with video calls we were literally messing with our brains=E2=80=99 own natural biological proc= esses? On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 16:42 David Lang via Nnagain < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services? > > I've used it personally. > > Even if women use telehealth more than men, that doesn't say that women > have any > particular advantage in moving the bits around that make telehealth > possible. > > David Lang > > On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: > > > Women are the primary users and providers of telehealth services. They > are > > using broadband to care for our population. They also run most of the > > addiction services across our country, whatever the addiction may be. S= o > > gender actually matters. Ask them as providers. Telehealth doesn't work > over > > LEO (nor does it matter much for men on boats.) Same for distance > learning. > > > > > https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/women-more-likely-telehealth-patients= -providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153/ > > > > As Washington considers which virtual care flexibilities should remain > in > > place post-COVID-19, experts are flagging that paring back telehealth > access > > and affordability will disproportionately affect women, even as a > growing > > share of startups emerge to address women=E2=80=99s unique health needs= . > > > > While women are more likely than men to visit doctors and consume > healthcare > > services in general, telehealth seems to be uniquely attractive to wome= n. > > > > Bob > >> who exactly do you think is calling for there to be no Internet > >> access? and what in the world does the sex of individuals have to do > >> with shipping bits around? > >> > >> Starlink (and hopefully it's future competitors) provides a way to get > >> Internet service to everyone without having to run fiber to every > >> house. > >> > >> As for the parallels with rural electrification, if that problem were > >> to be faced today, would the right answer be massive public agencies > >> to build and run miles of wire from massive central power plants? or > >> would the right answer be solar + batteries in individual houses for > >> the most rural folks, with small modular reactors to power the larger > >> population areas? > >> > >> Just because there was only one way to achieve a goal in the past > >> doesn't mean that approach is the best thing to do today. > >> > >> David Lang > >> > >> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: > >> > >>> Hi All, > >>> > >>> We're trying to modernize America. LBJ helped do it for electricity > >>> decades ago. It's our turn to step up to the plate. Tele-health and > >>> distance learning requires us to do so. There is so much to follow. > >>> > >>> A reminder what many women went through before LBJ showed up. I'm > >>> skeptical a patriarchy under Musk is even close to capable. We > probably > >>> need a woman to lead us, or at least motivate us to do our best work > for > >>> our country and to be an example to the world. > >>> > >>> A Hill Country farm wife had to do her chores even if she was ill =E2= =80=93 no > >>> matter how ill. Because Hill Country women were too poor to afford > proper > >>> medical care they often suffered perineal tears in childbirth. During > the > >>> 1930s, the federal government sent physicians to examine a sampling o= f > >>> Hill Country women. The doctors found that, out of 275 women, 158 had > >>> perineal tears. Many of them, the team of gynecologists reported, wer= e > >>> third-degree tears, =E2=80=9Ctears so bad that it is difficult to see= how they > >>> stand on their feet.=E2=80=9D But they were standing on their feet, a= nd doing > all > >>> the chores that Hill Country wives had always done =E2=80=93 hauling = the > water, > >>> hauling the wood, canning, washing, ironing, helping with the > shearing, > >>> the plowing and the picking. > >>> > >>> Because there was no electricity. > >>> > >>> Bob > >>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi Frantisek, > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thus, technically speaking, one would like the advantages of satco= m > >>>>>> such as starlink, to be at least 5gbit/s in 10 years time, to > overcome > >>>>>> the 'tangled fiber' problem. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> No, not really. Starlink was about to address the issue of digital > >>>>>> divide - > >>>>> > >>>>> I beg to differ. Starlink is a commercial enterprise with the goa= l > to > >>>>> make a profit by offering (usable) internet access essentially > >>>>> everywhere; it is not as far as I can tell an attempt at > specifically > >>>>> reducing the digital divide (were often an important factor is not > >>>>> necessarily location but financial means). > >>>> > >>>> Every Inernet company " commercial enterprise with the goal to make = a > >>>> profit by offering (usable) internet" don't dismiss a company becaus= e > >>>> of that. Starlink (and the other Satellite ISPs) all exist to servic= e > >>>> people who can't use traditional wired infrastructure > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> delivering internet to those 640k locations, where there is > literally > >>>>>> none today. Fiber will NEVER get there. And it will get there, it > will > >>>>>> be like 10 years down the road. > >>>>> > >>>>> This is IHO the wrong approach to take. The goal needs to be a > >>>>> universal FTTH access network (with the exception of extreme > locations, > >>>>> no need to pull fiber up to the highest Bivouac shelter on Mt. > Whitney). > >>>>> And f that takes a decade or two, so be it, this is infrastructure > that > >>>>> will keep on helping for many decades once rolled-out. However give= n > >>>>> that time frame one should consider work-arounds for the interim > period. > >>>>> I would have naively thought starlink would qualify for that from a > >>>>> technical perspective, but then the FCC documents actually > discussion > >>>>> requirements and how they were or were not met/promised by starlink > was > >>>>> mostly redacted. > >>>> > >>>> what do you consider 'extreme locations'? how long a run between > >>>> houses is 'too far'? > >>>> > >>>> we've seen the failure of commercial fiber monopolies in cities with > >>>> housing density of several houses per acre (and even where there are > >>>> apartment complexes there as well) because it's not profitable enoug= h. > >>>> When you get into areas where it's 'how many acres per house' the co= st > >>>> of running FTTH gets very high. I don't think this is the majority o= f > >>>> the population of the US any longer (but I don't know for sure), but > >>>> it's very clearly the majority of the area of the US. And once you g= et > >>>> out of the major metro areas, even getting fiber to every town or > >>>> village becomes a major undertaking. > >>>> > >>>> Is running fiber 30 miles to support a village of 700 people an > >>>> 'extreme location'? let me introduce you to Vermontville MI > >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermontville,_Michigan which is less > >>>> than an hours drive from the state capitol. > >>>> > >>>> David Lang > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Nnagain mailing list > >>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > >>> > >_______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --0000000000000b4774060c939823 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There=E2=80=99s good evidence that physical health can be= done over LEO as long as it isn=E2=80=99t low latency dependent. Of course= our illustrious listserv founder Dave Taht will be quick to point out high= latency is also found via ground-based connections too.=C2=A0

That said, there is still a lot of r= esearch debate on whether mental health services can be delivered effective= ly over video in general - regardless of LEO or not. The concern is two fol= d:=C2=A0

* video is subo= ptimal to detect tiny tells and other signatures of a patient developing a = relationship with a health provider=C2=A0

=
* 2D video actually is worse for brainstorming and creati= ve ideation. One might say so what relative to delivering healthcare, excep= t the evidence showing that video is worse for brainstorming indicates ther= e=E2=80=99s actually a continual subconscious confusion when folks do video= calls prompted by the body trying to discern if the one or more disembodie= d heads are friend or foe. Since we cannot see a person=E2=80=99s hands and= body movements we don=E2=80=99t know if they=E2=80=99re coming to attack u= s or not.=C2=A0

So futur= e generations may look back and decide that with video calls we were litera= lly messing with our brains=E2=80=99 own natural biological processes?=C2= =A0


On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 16:42 David Lang via Nnaga= in <nnagain@lists.buffe= rbloat.net> wrote:
why do you think teleh= ealth won't work over LEO services?

I've used it personally.

Even if women use telehealth more than men, that doesn't say that women= have any
particular advantage in moving the bits around that make telehealth possibl= e.

David Lang

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:

> Women are the primary users and providers of telehealth services. They= are
> using broadband to care for our population. They also run most of the =
> addiction services across our country, whatever the addiction may be. = So
> gender actually matters. Ask them as providers. Telehealth doesn't= work over
> LEO (nor does it matter much for men on boats.) Same for distance lear= ning.
>
> https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/women-more-likely-telehea= lth-patients-providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153/
>
> As Washington considers which virtual care flexibilities should remain= in
> place post-COVID-19, experts are flagging that paring back telehealth = access
> and affordability will disproportionately affect women, even as a grow= ing
> share of startups emerge to address women=E2=80=99s unique health need= s.
>
> While women are more likely than men to visit doctors and consume heal= thcare
> services in general, telehealth seems to be uniquely attractive to wom= en.
>
> Bob
>> who exactly do you think is calling for there to be no Internet >> access? and what in the world does the sex of individuals have to = do
>> with shipping bits around?
>>
>> Starlink (and hopefully it's future competitors) provides a wa= y to get
>> Internet service to everyone without having to run fiber to every<= br> >> house.
>>
>> As for the parallels with rural electrification, if that problem w= ere
>> to be faced today, would the right answer be massive public agenci= es
>> to build and run miles of wire from massive central power plants? = or
>> would the right answer be solar + batteries in individual houses f= or
>> the most rural folks, with small modular reactors to power the lar= ger
>> population areas?
>>
>> Just because there was only one way to achieve a goal in the past<= br> >> doesn't mean that approach is the best thing to do today.
>>
>> David Lang
>>
>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> We're trying to modernize America. LBJ helped do it for el= ectricity
>>> decades ago. It's our turn to step up to the plate. Tele-h= ealth and
>>> distance learning requires us to do so. There is so much to fo= llow.
>>>
>>> A reminder what many women went through before LBJ showed up. = I'm
>>> skeptical a patriarchy under Musk is even close to capable. We= probably
>>> need a woman to lead us, or at least motivate us to do our bes= t work for
>>> our country and to be an example to the world.
>>>
>>> A Hill Country farm wife had to do her chores even if she was = ill =E2=80=93 no
>>> matter how ill. Because Hill Country women were too poor to af= ford proper
>>> medical care they often suffered perineal tears in childbirth.= During the
>>> 1930s, the federal government sent physicians to examine a sam= pling of
>>> Hill Country women. The doctors found that, out of 275 women, = 158 had
>>> perineal tears. Many of them, the team of gynecologists report= ed, were
>>> third-degree tears, =E2=80=9Ctears so bad that it is difficult= to see how they
>>> stand on their feet.=E2=80=9D But they were standing on their = feet, and doing all
>>> the chores that Hill Country wives had always done =E2=80=93 h= auling the water,
>>> hauling the wood, canning, washing, ironing, helping with the = shearing,
>>> the plowing and the picking.
>>>
>>> Because there was no electricity.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote:=
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Frantisek,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek Borsik via Nn= again
>>>>>> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thus, technically speaking, one would like the adv= antages of satcom
>>>>>> such as starlink, to be at least 5gbit/s in 10 yea= rs time, to overcome
>>>>>> the 'tangled fiber' problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, not really. Starlink was about to address the = issue of digital
>>>>>> divide -
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0I beg to differ. Starlink is a commercial = enterprise with the goal to
>>>>> make a profit by offering (usable) internet access ess= entially
>>>>> everywhere; it is not as far as I can tell an attempt = at specifically
>>>>> reducing the digital divide (were often an important f= actor is not
>>>>> necessarily location but financial means).
>>>>
>>>> Every Inernet company " commercial enterprise with th= e goal to make a
>>>> profit by offering (usable) internet" don't dismi= ss a company because
>>>> of that. Starlink (and the other Satellite ISPs) all exist= to service
>>>> people who can't use traditional wired infrastructure<= br> >>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> delivering internet to those 640k locations, where= there is literally
>>>>>> none today. Fiber will NEVER get there. And it wil= l get there, it will
>>>>>> be like 10 years down the road.
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0This is IHO the wrong approach to take. Th= e goal needs to be a
>>>>> universal FTTH access network (with the exception of e= xtreme locations,
>>>>> no need to pull fiber up to the highest Bivouac shelte= r on Mt. Whitney).
>>>>> And f that takes a decade or two, so be it, this is in= frastructure that
>>>>> will keep on helping for many decades once rolled-out.= However given
>>>>> that time frame one should consider work-arounds for t= he interim period.
>>>>> I would have naively thought starlink would qualify fo= r that from a
>>>>> technical perspective, but then the FCC documents actu= ally discussion
>>>>> requirements and how they were or were not met/promise= d by starlink was
>>>>> mostly redacted.
>>>>
>>>> what do you consider 'extreme locations'? how long= a run between
>>>> houses is 'too far'?
>>>>
>>>> we've seen the failure of commercial fiber monopolies = in cities with
>>>> housing density of several houses per acre (and even where= there are
>>>> apartment complexes there as well) because it's not pr= ofitable enough.
>>>> When you get into areas where it's 'how many acres= per house' the cost
>>>> of running FTTH gets very high. I don't think this is = the majority of
>>>> the population of the US any longer (but I don't know = for sure), but
>>>> it's very clearly the majority of the area of the US. = And once you get
>>>> out of the major metro areas, even getting fiber to every = town or
>>>> village becomes a major undertaking.
>>>>
>>>> Is running fiber 30 miles to support a village of 700 peop= le an
>>>> 'extreme location'? let me introduce you to Vermon= tville MI
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V= ermontville,_Michigan which is less
>>>> than an hours drive from the state capitol.
>>>>
>>>> David Lang
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Nnagain mailing list
>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinf= o/nnagain
>>>
>_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
--0000000000000b4774060c939823--