From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lf1-x132.google.com (mail-lf1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C83033CB41; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 17:13:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-lf1-x132.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-50bdec453c8so1296387e87.3; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 14:13:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1702678429; x=1703283229; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=WA8mNKxZMbcrXwt2uRln+E4nZpYebDOOv8RXltDKO5M=; b=k9+0Wae1k/Ru8uscNvY/QMEbp9WxUvjiJFuxkifZPn1TNDYca0HL/9ledfjKN5h6fw aNGBsuYehxB54vvcbV2FfKj/qmjup1pBL9Hb1ZeVx7MsHAOUq535Szv9pXlxl+4KpnFQ fzkcFfzXTJXLrrwJNV5NJuwmSghPPchuo8AC87aE5VG8ygrfYRSvl2e2klqOCg+s98+j jSxh1TJ3Z4ysWFd4UFbpOMOlAvSJS5oZAQ6/SFZYLVPi0faI4dwCoVZNnFPZjJoH0Drl UaKQwXCbM2ApHivzxVipSJ36jNGtSxNk84fnuF2igd50A13lEmUmTBDcRWnI+pLAh19v 7JkA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1702678429; x=1703283229; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=WA8mNKxZMbcrXwt2uRln+E4nZpYebDOOv8RXltDKO5M=; b=GyMFuBazSTplktAvPUSko6Ad/5orJbm9SSwmUnyXpYUjczU27HR94eqki++pR53wd0 Ic8t+zJwRT9GtJVwV8u0qf+I/rC4jQn4isMyXkZtaj7XYcx4f2vEeeGVGmmmRmmqIcr+ SiC9mYYMTl2bjfERrCNesnXfBEKEviN8Ai4Ygu9GGShYLp38yFySMBSyon4p3iGj9B7y XUMkZoh/azsFb5m3neKLSyGvGXhEHhPvR1lP4MXFJK35757pYjgBD6DHly5aHcCkx/IO cTKwagE0+hJ4Y1zUbxTyS1y7USeEVxOZyc2r3HNFmLqrQ+VHXkPot68oMm+GiXxdyP50 4zvg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzOjDIQz11O79kxqvXn733SEKN6DUfstdzoOKFXJMEjR0K/rJ5V lZiu7qNj7j0FO9ykCmc2Ifv9238gG/s9q4EC5KqBIvPwHW4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFvOSoajNUc201wfLppKyKqzutGzGh3Qux19YC4QvFjqcBPVrzSkXB1fyBZcw9hPwalvuK7J9CJqvoD3NPP//g= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4182:0:b0:50b:fa93:35c9 with SMTP id z2-20020ac24182000000b0050bfa9335c9mr5280402lfh.113.1702678429095; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 14:13:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <55037f9a-bc2c-4bbb-a4bb-47ad30f16190@rjmcmahon.com> <02cc2879-ef99-4388-bc1e-335a4aaff6aa@gmail.com> <18A40E71-F636-41A9-A8A7-0F4F69E3C99F@gmx.de> <650s1558-6310-063q-s5q2-o782rnnoss29@ynat.uz> <471154o6-no08-67or-p1o2-np919ro26osp@ynat.uz> <05ef1cd50d0e0a681b2cd38b1bdeb0a9@rjmcmahon.com> <4p61qp8r-p1p1-r83r-n283-315548o163po@ynat.uz> <045p54s4-r8p3-o2s7-7qq2-r2p6o28ss7q1@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: <045p54s4-r8p3-o2s7-7qq2-r2p6o28ss7q1@ynat.uz> From: "David Bray, PhD" Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 17:13:10 -0500 Message-ID: To: David Lang Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= , rjmcmahon , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000eedbb4060c93b6a0" Subject: Re: [NNagain] [Starlink] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's RDOF Application X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 22:13:51 -0000 --000000000000eedbb4060c93b6a0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This GPT(human)bot was responding to the engineered prompt: >>why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services? As it's Friday, this GPT(human)bot bandwidth has been fully utilized for the week. Our servers will be back-on line come Monday. Wishing everyone (human or machine) a wonderful weekend ahead! On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 5:10=E2=80=AFPM David Lang wrote: > I don't disagree with anything that you say below, but the discussion was > on the > topic of starlink vs fiber, with the person I was responding to claiming > that we > needed to have women in charge of the Internet companies because of > telehealth > as well. > > I'm a remote worker and VERY aware of how limiting video calls are > compared to > in-person meetings. > > David Lang > > On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, David Bray, PhD wrote: > > > There=E2=80=99s good evidence that physical health can be done over LEO= as long > as > > it isn=E2=80=99t low latency dependent. Of course our illustrious lists= erv > founder > > Dave Taht will be quick to point out high latency is also found via > > ground-based connections too. > > > > That said, there is still a lot of research debate on whether mental > health > > services can be delivered effectively over video in general - regardles= s > of > > LEO or not. The concern is two fold: > > > > * video is suboptimal to detect tiny tells and other signatures of a > > patient developing a relationship with a health provider > > > > * 2D video actually is worse for brainstorming and creative ideation. O= ne > > might say so what relative to delivering healthcare, except the evidenc= e > > showing that video is worse for brainstorming indicates there=E2=80=99s= actually > a > > continual subconscious confusion when folks do video calls prompted by > the > > body trying to discern if the one or more disembodied heads are friend = or > > foe. Since we cannot see a person=E2=80=99s hands and body movements we= don=E2=80=99t > know > > if they=E2=80=99re coming to attack us or not. > > > > So future generations may look back and decide that with video calls we > > were literally messing with our brains=E2=80=99 own natural biological = processes? > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 16:42 David Lang via Nnagain < > > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > >> why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services? > >> > >> I've used it personally. > >> > >> Even if women use telehealth more than men, that doesn't say that wome= n > >> have any > >> particular advantage in moving the bits around that make telehealth > >> possible. > >> > >> David Lang > >> > >> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: > >> > >>> Women are the primary users and providers of telehealth services. The= y > >> are > >>> using broadband to care for our population. They also run most of the > >>> addiction services across our country, whatever the addiction may be. > So > >>> gender actually matters. Ask them as providers. Telehealth doesn't wo= rk > >> over > >>> LEO (nor does it matter much for men on boats.) Same for distance > >> learning. > >>> > >>> > >> > https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/women-more-likely-telehealth-patients= -providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153/ > >>> > >>> As Washington considers which virtual care flexibilities should remai= n > >> in > >>> place post-COVID-19, experts are flagging that paring back telehealth > >> access > >>> and affordability will disproportionately affect women, even as a > >> growing > >>> share of startups emerge to address women=E2=80=99s unique health nee= ds. > >>> > >>> While women are more likely than men to visit doctors and consume > >> healthcare > >>> services in general, telehealth seems to be uniquely attractive to > women. > >>> > >>> Bob > >>>> who exactly do you think is calling for there to be no Internet > >>>> access? and what in the world does the sex of individuals have to do > >>>> with shipping bits around? > >>>> > >>>> Starlink (and hopefully it's future competitors) provides a way to g= et > >>>> Internet service to everyone without having to run fiber to every > >>>> house. > >>>> > >>>> As for the parallels with rural electrification, if that problem wer= e > >>>> to be faced today, would the right answer be massive public agencies > >>>> to build and run miles of wire from massive central power plants? or > >>>> would the right answer be solar + batteries in individual houses for > >>>> the most rural folks, with small modular reactors to power the large= r > >>>> population areas? > >>>> > >>>> Just because there was only one way to achieve a goal in the past > >>>> doesn't mean that approach is the best thing to do today. > >>>> > >>>> David Lang > >>>> > >>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi All, > >>>>> > >>>>> We're trying to modernize America. LBJ helped do it for electricity > >>>>> decades ago. It's our turn to step up to the plate. Tele-health and > >>>>> distance learning requires us to do so. There is so much to follow. > >>>>> > >>>>> A reminder what many women went through before LBJ showed up. I'm > >>>>> skeptical a patriarchy under Musk is even close to capable. We > >> probably > >>>>> need a woman to lead us, or at least motivate us to do our best wor= k > >> for > >>>>> our country and to be an example to the world. > >>>>> > >>>>> A Hill Country farm wife had to do her chores even if she was ill = =E2=80=93 > no > >>>>> matter how ill. Because Hill Country women were too poor to afford > >> proper > >>>>> medical care they often suffered perineal tears in childbirth. Duri= ng > >> the > >>>>> 1930s, the federal government sent physicians to examine a sampling > of > >>>>> Hill Country women. The doctors found that, out of 275 women, 158 h= ad > >>>>> perineal tears. Many of them, the team of gynecologists reported, > were > >>>>> third-degree tears, =E2=80=9Ctears so bad that it is difficult to s= ee how > they > >>>>> stand on their feet.=E2=80=9D But they were standing on their feet,= and doing > >> all > >>>>> the chores that Hill Country wives had always done =E2=80=93 haulin= g the > >> water, > >>>>> hauling the wood, canning, washing, ironing, helping with the > >> shearing, > >>>>> the plowing and the picking. > >>>>> > >>>>> Because there was no electricity. > >>>>> > >>>>> Bob > >>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi Frantisek, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thus, technically speaking, one would like the advantages of > satcom > >>>>>>>> such as starlink, to be at least 5gbit/s in 10 years time, to > >> overcome > >>>>>>>> the 'tangled fiber' problem. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> No, not really. Starlink was about to address the issue of digit= al > >>>>>>>> divide - > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I beg to differ. Starlink is a commercial enterprise with the > goal > >> to > >>>>>>> make a profit by offering (usable) internet access essentially > >>>>>>> everywhere; it is not as far as I can tell an attempt at > >> specifically > >>>>>>> reducing the digital divide (were often an important factor is no= t > >>>>>>> necessarily location but financial means). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Every Inernet company " commercial enterprise with the goal to mak= e > a > >>>>>> profit by offering (usable) internet" don't dismiss a company > because > >>>>>> of that. Starlink (and the other Satellite ISPs) all exist to > service > >>>>>> people who can't use traditional wired infrastructure > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> delivering internet to those 640k locations, where there is > >> literally > >>>>>>>> none today. Fiber will NEVER get there. And it will get there, i= t > >> will > >>>>>>>> be like 10 years down the road. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> This is IHO the wrong approach to take. The goal needs to be a > >>>>>>> universal FTTH access network (with the exception of extreme > >> locations, > >>>>>>> no need to pull fiber up to the highest Bivouac shelter on Mt. > >> Whitney). > >>>>>>> And f that takes a decade or two, so be it, this is infrastructur= e > >> that > >>>>>>> will keep on helping for many decades once rolled-out. However > given > >>>>>>> that time frame one should consider work-arounds for the interim > >> period. > >>>>>>> I would have naively thought starlink would qualify for that from= a > >>>>>>> technical perspective, but then the FCC documents actually > >> discussion > >>>>>>> requirements and how they were or were not met/promised by starli= nk > >> was > >>>>>>> mostly redacted. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> what do you consider 'extreme locations'? how long a run between > >>>>>> houses is 'too far'? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> we've seen the failure of commercial fiber monopolies in cities wi= th > >>>>>> housing density of several houses per acre (and even where there a= re > >>>>>> apartment complexes there as well) because it's not profitable > enough. > >>>>>> When you get into areas where it's 'how many acres per house' the > cost > >>>>>> of running FTTH gets very high. I don't think this is the majority > of > >>>>>> the population of the US any longer (but I don't know for sure), b= ut > >>>>>> it's very clearly the majority of the area of the US. And once you > get > >>>>>> out of the major metro areas, even getting fiber to every town or > >>>>>> village becomes a major undertaking. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Is running fiber 30 miles to support a village of 700 people an > >>>>>> 'extreme location'? let me introduce you to Vermontville MI > >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermontville,_Michigan which is less > >>>>>> than an hours drive from the state capitol. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> David Lang > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Nnagain mailing list > >>>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > >>>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >> Nnagain mailing list > >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > >> > > --000000000000eedbb4060c93b6a0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This GPT(human)bot was responding to the engineered p= rompt:=C2=A0 >>why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO se= rvices?

As it's Friday, this=20 GPT(human)bot bandwidth has been fully utilized for the week. Our servers w= ill be back-on line come Monday.

Wishing ever= yone (human or machine) a wonderful weekend ahead!


On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 5:10=E2=80=AFPM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
I don't disagree with anything that you say = below, but the discussion was on the
topic of starlink vs fiber, with the person I was responding to claiming th= at we
needed to have women in charge of the Internet companies because of telehea= lth
as well.

I'm a remote worker and VERY aware of how limiting video calls are comp= ared to
in-person meetings.

David Lang

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, David Bray, PhD wrote:

> There=E2=80=99s good evidence that physical health can be done over LE= O as long as
> it isn=E2=80=99t low latency dependent. Of course our illustrious list= serv founder
> Dave Taht will be quick to point out high latency is also found via > ground-based connections too.
>
> That said, there is still a lot of research debate on whether mental h= ealth
> services can be delivered effectively over video in general - regardle= ss of
> LEO or not. The concern is two fold:
>
> * video is suboptimal to detect tiny tells and other signatures of a > patient developing a relationship with a health provider
>
> * 2D video actually is worse for brainstorming and creative ideation. = One
> might say so what relative to delivering healthcare, except the eviden= ce
> showing that video is worse for brainstorming indicates there=E2=80=99= s actually a
> continual subconscious confusion when folks do video calls prompted by= the
> body trying to discern if the one or more disembodied heads are friend= or
> foe. Since we cannot see a person=E2=80=99s hands and body movements w= e don=E2=80=99t know
> if they=E2=80=99re coming to attack us or not.
>
> So future generations may look back and decide that with video calls w= e
> were literally messing with our brains=E2=80=99 own natural biological= processes?
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 16:42 David Lang via Nnagain <
> nna= gain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services?
>>
>> I've used it personally.
>>
>> Even if women use telehealth more than men, that doesn't say t= hat women
>> have any
>> particular advantage in moving the bits around that make telehealt= h
>> possible.
>>
>> David Lang
>>
>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
>>
>>> Women are the primary users and providers of telehealth servic= es. They
>> are
>>> using broadband to care for our population. They also run most= of the
>>> addiction services across our country, whatever the addiction = may be. So
>>> gender actually matters. Ask them as providers. Telehealth doe= sn't work
>> over
>>> LEO (nor does it matter much for men on boats.) Same for dista= nce
>> learning.
>>>
>>>
>> https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/women-more-likely-tel= ehealth-patients-providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153/
>>>
>>> As Washington considers which virtual care flexibilities shoul= d remain
>> in
>>> place post-COVID-19, experts are flagging that paring back tel= ehealth
>> access
>>> and affordability will disproportionately affect women, even a= s a
>> growing
>>> share of startups emerge to address women=E2=80=99s unique hea= lth needs.
>>>
>>> While women are more likely than men to visit doctors and cons= ume
>> healthcare
>>> services in general, telehealth seems to be uniquely attractiv= e to women.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>> who exactly do you think is calling for there to be no Int= ernet
>>>> access? and what in the world does the sex of individuals = have to do
>>>> with shipping bits around?
>>>>
>>>> Starlink (and hopefully it's future competitors) provi= des a way to get
>>>> Internet service to everyone without having to run fiber t= o every
>>>> house.
>>>>
>>>> As for the parallels with rural electrification, if that p= roblem were
>>>> to be faced today, would the right answer be massive publi= c agencies
>>>> to build and run miles of wire from massive central power = plants? or
>>>> would the right answer be solar + batteries in individual = houses for
>>>> the most rural folks, with small modular reactors to power= the larger
>>>> population areas?
>>>>
>>>> Just because there was only one way to achieve a goal in t= he past
>>>> doesn't mean that approach is the best thing to do tod= ay.
>>>>
>>>> David Lang
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> We're trying to modernize America. LBJ helped do i= t for electricity
>>>>> decades ago. It's our turn to step up to the plate= . Tele-health and
>>>>> distance learning requires us to do so. There is so mu= ch to follow.
>>>>>
>>>>> A reminder what many women went through before LBJ sho= wed up. I'm
>>>>> skeptical a patriarchy under Musk is even close to cap= able. We
>> probably
>>>>> need a woman to lead us, or at least motivate us to do= our best work
>> for
>>>>> our country and to be an example to the world.
>>>>>
>>>>> A Hill Country farm wife had to do her chores even if = she was ill =E2=80=93 no
>>>>> matter how ill. Because Hill Country women were too po= or to afford
>> proper
>>>>> medical care they often suffered perineal tears in chi= ldbirth. During
>> the
>>>>> 1930s, the federal government sent physicians to exami= ne a sampling of
>>>>> Hill Country women. The doctors found that, out of 275= women, 158 had
>>>>> perineal tears. Many of them, the team of gynecologist= s reported, were
>>>>> third-degree tears, =E2=80=9Ctears so bad that it is d= ifficult to see how they
>>>>> stand on their feet.=E2=80=9D But they were standing o= n their feet, and doing
>> all
>>>>> the chores that Hill Country wives had always done =E2= =80=93 hauling the
>> water,
>>>>> hauling the wood, canning, washing, ironing, helping w= ith the
>> shearing,
>>>>> the plowing and the picking.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because there was no electricity.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Starlin= k wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Frantisek,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek Borsi= k via Nnagain
>>>>>>>> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thus, technically speaking, one would like= the advantages of satcom
>>>>>>>> such as starlink, to be at least 5gbit/s i= n 10 years time, to
>> overcome
>>>>>>>> the 'tangled fiber' problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, not really. Starlink was about to addr= ess the issue of digital
>>>>>>>> divide -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0I beg to differ. Starlink is a com= mercial enterprise with the goal
>> to
>>>>>>> make a profit by offering (usable) internet ac= cess essentially
>>>>>>> everywhere; it is not as far as I can tell an = attempt at
>> specifically
>>>>>>> reducing the digital divide (were often an imp= ortant factor is not
>>>>>>> necessarily location but financial means).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Every Inernet company " commercial enterprise= with the goal to make a
>>>>>> profit by offering (usable) internet" don'= ;t dismiss a company because
>>>>>> of that. Starlink (and the other Satellite ISPs) a= ll exist to service
>>>>>> people who can't use traditional wired infrast= ructure
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> delivering internet to those 640k location= s, where there is
>> literally
>>>>>>>> none today. Fiber will NEVER get there. An= d it will get there, it
>> will
>>>>>>>> be like 10 years down the road.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0This is IHO the wrong approach to = take. The goal needs to be a
>>>>>>> universal FTTH access network (with the except= ion of extreme
>> locations,
>>>>>>> no need to pull fiber up to the highest Bivoua= c shelter on Mt.
>> Whitney).
>>>>>>> And f that takes a decade or two, so be it, th= is is infrastructure
>> that
>>>>>>> will keep on helping for many decades once rol= led-out. However given
>>>>>>> that time frame one should consider work-aroun= ds for the interim
>> period.
>>>>>>> I would have naively thought starlink would qu= alify for that from a
>>>>>>> technical perspective, but then the FCC docume= nts actually
>> discussion
>>>>>>> requirements and how they were or were not met= /promised by starlink
>> was
>>>>>>> mostly redacted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> what do you consider 'extreme locations'? = how long a run between
>>>>>> houses is 'too far'?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> we've seen the failure of commercial fiber mon= opolies in cities with
>>>>>> housing density of several houses per acre (and ev= en where there are
>>>>>> apartment complexes there as well) because it'= s not profitable enough.
>>>>>> When you get into areas where it's 'how ma= ny acres per house' the cost
>>>>>> of running FTTH gets very high. I don't think = this is the majority of
>>>>>> the population of the US any longer (but I don'= ;t know for sure), but
>>>>>> it's very clearly the majority of the area of = the US. And once you get
>>>>>> out of the major metro areas, even getting fiber t= o every town or
>>>>>> village becomes a major undertaking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is running fiber 30 miles to support a village of = 700 people an
>>>>>> 'extreme location'? let me introduce you t= o Vermontville MI
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.or= g/wiki/Vermontville,_Michigan which is less
>>>>>> than an hours drive from the state capitol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David Lang
>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Nnagain mailing list
>>>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net= /listinfo/nnagain
>>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Nnagain mailing list
>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagai= n
>>
>
--000000000000eedbb4060c93b6a0--