From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pj1-x1033.google.com (mail-pj1-x1033.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1033]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A65313CB37 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2023 15:25:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1033.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-27758c8f579so967146a91.0 for ; Thu, 05 Oct 2023 12:25:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1696533932; x=1697138732; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=66RCbqIKYaQWDkkHu0VuENj/APTI19C0QHUk431SlFg=; b=NVGgRoKYHZDieZ7sOQmJPcJe9Yf8bVuzuwfWw0iyev0YtUMj4fweiVwyTd8SYeU3M1 mvW0XigU1xmCkIqVa6gItZ33NXLrY72KQOJwILy4Vr5vd+o30VxN1JN9OGDhr6y/fPr3 NV+sINljEHExSg8AQRTS8dJtMI179IhplwZd9phUbLv+qCPZ88mBZYc2gMTtiewj6Ob5 ujo+ZYdSVbe1eO6LEh8VvCoelAe8lb076G9nfTkjTlW3i8+C/IWLequZmoznHT9fKSQ4 iB3yAbA8xKmZ1wDID4YaHVY/HrdYVwa/Av8bZiOAXQA7Ynlr436BVLcWOqkHt/UHb77L 4hZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1696533932; x=1697138732; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=66RCbqIKYaQWDkkHu0VuENj/APTI19C0QHUk431SlFg=; b=cnqTrO9vhra6npzYtNL1khnKbCWHkdS/Typ5WezBfYh/roZdECrWTeM/iB0/ZY/CYe 4qM1oYg8uvlaJzsWg8mA2AZEj6qLLK9Kn+nc8lD12m5IS4/WjSh4DSPnPIZrDRh7k/QQ oDJgRfmMYS2GM7/0oFjA/HyiySRtVJkaboWNbHTBTg5ui4NmwfPdAo2I8YCwkMp6oI7c A4jExEe+fo/RJRFwuOeFkezLt0U3Oz+uOC8kQjM2Ed/GXan0ra5MsOVf0FrdhP7f5vXt etPduXWOHeulqk7Dy7Svrh0m1kN1Ku/JZSPn/k0tOfbqazA7sKdrYGUxwoMssUmK9IzW 4iog== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw5qu10ykoQkkQgqe9ddCM2fA7MN79N4DMo9iqChQCp65+2s8gu idQAulQdrfRgh4K3cyQxp+Y5BOrHuT0hzH+TvZbcluFr X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFDJFlLRRx5osNiBJqyTP2x4s3XJt1HiYPXQFgMUev3CSuxH9ej1jBu71ebyDVFkSV/oEWVucA2iv6ie1SR4VA= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4a0c:b0:274:b4ce:7049 with SMTP id kk12-20020a17090b4a0c00b00274b4ce7049mr5949057pjb.34.1696533932537; Thu, 05 Oct 2023 12:25:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5so3r00n-31pn-14s7-7775-08731s3s551r@ynat.uz> <7508FE73-A154-4CBA-984C-748A80C5FFEC@gmail.com> <039490DA-48A7-4AE2-B00F-AA2A260FB747@gmail.com> <3F6D16C8-530E-4066-8B6A-C0644B3C2D2C@gmx.de> <4545.1696457946@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4545.1696457946@localhost> From: Dave Taht Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 12:25:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson , =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspect?= =?UTF-8?Q?s_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [NNagain] Premium quality retail plans? X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2023 19:25:33 -0000 IF you have a major fork in the conversation, please change the title to su= it. On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 11:53=E2=80=AFAM Michael Richardson via Rpm wrote: > > > Mike Conlow via Bloat wrote: > > As I read this thread and think about the coming debate in the U.S.= , two > > things come to mind: > > > 1. Ofcom is considering > > > > a net neutrality "clarification". The first topic in the consultati= on is > > whether ISPs should be allowed to offer "premium quality retail pla= ns". It > > doesn't specify the technical implementation, but there would be di= fferent > > plans for "users who mainly stream" vs "people who use high quality > > virtual reality applications". Apparently ISPs feel the existing NN= rules > > are not clear on whether this is allowed. > > > The question I'm thinking about is do we want an Internet where end= user > > plans are divided up this way? And if not, is a NN regulation the r= ight > > place to put those rules? > > Network Neutrality means that all senders are treated the same by the *IS= P* > The ISP doesn't get to decide to prefer some peers over others. > > It doesn't mean that the customer can't be given controls to determine wh= at > traffic they want, and what priority they want to give it. > > I think those two categories are totally bonkers. I would never want to > subscribe to either service plan, because clearly the ISP thinks they can > just offload bufferbloat. We've had protocols to classify traffic for > decades, but ISPs couldn't be bothered to figure out how to sell that. > > > 2. To the point in the PS of the below email, I would agree things = are > > mostly working in the EU, and in the US. But things > > are > > What's twitter? > > > Are NN rules the right place to address this and make sure it doesn= 't > > happen in the US? Or is one bad actor across the EU and US the cost= of > > doing business and the Internet ecosystem and "market" are *mostly*= solving > > the issue? > > The EU bureaucrats are mostly lost in some fantasy land. > I don't think it will end well. It is most of the industry, I do not wish to point fingers at any one org as being confused, or at fault. I would, however, like to inject technical details into all these conversations. Moved this > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh netwo= rks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architec= t [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails= [ > > _______________________________________________ > Rpm mailing list > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm --=20 Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.htm= l Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos