[NNagain] some compelling rhetoric

[NNagain] some compelling rhetoric

[Dave Taht]

https://www.freepress.net/blog/what-net-neutrality

It also contains a link to the proposed NPRM.

I am however, under the impression that 2019-2022 bandwidths increased
by a lot, coverage was extended to more folk, and cell phones
subsidiezed by ACP kept a lot of people connected.


-- 
Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

Re: [NNagain] some compelling rhetoric

[rjmcmahon]

Not sure of the goals with this, but it reads like misinformation and 
propaganda to me. The state of so-called "digital journalism" today is 
very sad. Hopefully, we'll find a way so quality journalism can rise to 
the top, created by journalists who get paid for publishing with 
integrity and aren't paid to produce propaganda (I know - wishful 
thinking - Elon Musk and all that.)

History suggests we may have to wait awhile. Let's hope not.

1436 Gutenberg press invented
1517 Martin Luther posts his 95 Theses
1687 Newton's Principia is published

https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs181/projects/2010-11/Journalism/index7f0d.html?page_id=16

The fact of the matter is that democracy requires informed citizens. No 
governing body can be expected to operate well without knowledge of the 
issues on which it is to rule, and rule by the people entails that the 
people should be informed. In a representative democracy, the role of 
the press is twofold: it both informs citizens and sets up a feedback 
loop between the government and voters. The press makes the actions of 
the government known to the public, and voters who disapprove of current 
trends in policy can take corrective action in the next election. 
Without the press, the feedback loop is broken and the government is no 
longer accountable to the people. The press is therefore of the utmost 
importance in a representative democracy.

Another, related, function of the press is to expose people to opinions 
contrary to their own. This function is perhaps the most valuable in the 
Internet age; while people can in theory get information about the 
actions of their government from online sources, it is all too easy to 
find opinions online that match one’s own. Informed decision-making on 
the part of voters requires an awareness of multiple points of view, 
which is not likely to be obtained if voters bear the sole 
responsibility of seeking out information on relevant issues. The news 
media provide a forum for debates to take place, as well as moderating 
and curating the arguments presented by all sides. It is, of course, 
idealistic to suppose that media give equal, or even proportional, 
representation to all opinions, but the fact that many media outlets 
present themselves as nonpartisan sources of information makes them a 
better forum for debate than online sources such as blogs, which are 
typically maintained by one individual or a small group of people with 
similar opinions

Bob
> https://www.freepress.net/blog/what-net-neutrality
> 
> It also contains a link to the proposed NPRM.
> 
> I am however, under the impression that 2019-2022 bandwidths increased
> by a lot, coverage was extended to more folk, and cell phones
> subsidiezed by ACP kept a lot of people connected.

Re: [NNagain] some compelling rhetoric

[Dave Taht]

I note that when I complement someone's rhetoric, I am often quite
honestly admiring of it, and yet being sarcastic about the uses to
subtly mislead. I am also hoping that with 186 people on the list,
that more will be inspired to thrash out truths and lies,
rationally... and come up with better rhetoric.

On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 1:43 PM rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
>
> Not sure of the goals with this, but it reads like misinformation and
> propaganda to me. The state of so-called "digital journalism" today is
> very sad. Hopefully, we'll find a way so quality journalism can rise to
> the top, created by journalists who get paid for publishing with
> integrity and aren't paid to produce propaganda (I know - wishful
> thinking - Elon Musk and all that.)
>
> History suggests we may have to wait awhile. Let's hope not.
>
> 1436 Gutenberg press invented
> 1517 Martin Luther posts his 95 Theses
> 1687 Newton's Principia is published
>
> https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs181/projects/2010-11/Journalism/index7f0d.html?page_id=16
>
> The fact of the matter is that democracy requires informed citizens. No
> governing body can be expected to operate well without knowledge of the
> issues on which it is to rule, and rule by the people entails that the
> people should be informed. In a representative democracy, the role of
> the press is twofold: it both informs citizens and sets up a feedback
> loop between the government and voters. The press makes the actions of
> the government known to the public, and voters who disapprove of current
> trends in policy can take corrective action in the next election.
> Without the press, the feedback loop is broken and the government is no
> longer accountable to the people. The press is therefore of the utmost
> importance in a representative democracy.
>
> Another, related, function of the press is to expose people to opinions
> contrary to their own. This function is perhaps the most valuable in the
> Internet age; while people can in theory get information about the
> actions of their government from online sources, it is all too easy to
> find opinions online that match one’s own. Informed decision-making on
> the part of voters requires an awareness of multiple points of view,
> which is not likely to be obtained if voters bear the sole
> responsibility of seeking out information on relevant issues. The news
> media provide a forum for debates to take place, as well as moderating
> and curating the arguments presented by all sides. It is, of course,
> idealistic to suppose that media give equal, or even proportional,
> representation to all opinions, but the fact that many media outlets
> present themselves as nonpartisan sources of information makes them a
> better forum for debate than online sources such as blogs, which are
> typically maintained by one individual or a small group of people with
> similar opinions
>
> Bob
> > https://www.freepress.net/blog/what-net-neutrality
> >
> > It also contains a link to the proposed NPRM.
> >
> > I am however, under the impression that 2019-2022 bandwidths increased
> > by a lot, coverage was extended to more folk, and cell phones
> > subsidiezed by ACP kept a lot of people connected.



-- 
Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

Re: [NNagain] some compelling rhetoric

[Dave Taht]

On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 8:08 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I note that when I complement someone's rhetoric, I am often quite
> honestly admiring of it, and yet being sarcastic about the uses to
> subtly mislead. I am also hoping that with 186 people on the list,
> that more will be inspired to thrash out truths and lies,
> rationally... and come up with better rhetoric.

I also was not criticising *your* points, but lacked time to say anything.

> On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 1:43 PM rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
> >
> > Not sure of the goals with this, but it reads like misinformation and
> > propaganda to me. The state of so-called "digital journalism" today is
> > very sad. Hopefully, we'll find a way so quality journalism can rise to
> > the top, created by journalists who get paid for publishing with
> > integrity and aren't paid to produce propaganda (I know - wishful
> > thinking - Elon Musk and all that.)
> >
> > History suggests we may have to wait awhile. Let's hope not.
> >
> > 1436 Gutenberg press invented
> > 1517 Martin Luther posts his 95 Theses
> > 1687 Newton's Principia is published
> >
> > https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs181/projects/2010-11/Journalism/index7f0d.html?page_id=16
> >
> > The fact of the matter is that democracy requires informed citizens.

To be pedantic, America is theoretically a democratic republic.

In either case, an informed citizenry is rare, and the large lying
models (LLMs) are not helping. I mentioned in an earlier thread that I
had approved of the code of conduct trend, but was disturbed at the
lack of ethics inherent in it. Engineers, unlike doctors, are not
bound to do their best to not kill people, although most of us try
pretty hard to not do so.  There are some ethical standards for
engineers, I wish more projects tried to apply them, instead of
creating licenses like "do not do evil", and granting the occasional
exception for them.

Engineers also really need truths in order to do good engineering.
Rounding off PI to 3 is not helpful.

Journalists and scientists, are supposed to find the truth, but the
former too frequently, just look for two sides to a story, to tell,
and the latter, dither. I enjoyed Oppenheimer scaring the chief
engineer on the eve of the Trinity test, saying there was a non-zero
possibility of igniting the atmosphere!

As for lawyers, I am too cynical to express how I often feel about far
too many cases where the public interest is not served. In copyright
law, in particular (which is the only branch of it I have ever
touched), I wish we could at least have court appointed public
defenders.

Some days, like today, I wish I could find redress for establishing
the few truths I understand deeply. What do you do when chatgpt thinks
you died in 2020, bing thinks you are the fictional president of
magaretha, and shades the truth so much on what is publicly available
source code as it did below? I do not know what the legal catagory for
misrepresenting reality is!???

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7118969694987935744/




> > governing body can be expected to operate well without knowledge of the
> > issues on which it is to rule, and rule by the people entails that the
> > people should be informed. In a representative democracy, the role of
> > the press is twofold: it both informs citizens and sets up a feedback
> > loop between the government and voters. The press makes the actions of
> > the government known to the public, and voters who disapprove of current
> > trends in policy can take corrective action in the next election.

This was really good. Is this a quote? I have often longed for an
anti-google, where one search result in 5 was a competing thesis,
based on other facts. I like that twitter is doing "community notes",
and also like the fact checking sites on the web (but who fact checks
the fact checkers?)


> > Without the press, the feedback loop is broken and the government is no
> > longer accountable to the people. The press is therefore of the utmost
> > importance in a representative democracy.
> >
> > Another, related, function of the press is to expose people to opinions
> > contrary to their own. This function is perhaps the most valuable in the
> > Internet age; while people can in theory get information about the
> > actions of their government from online sources, it is all too easy to
> > find opinions online that match one’s own. Informed decision-making on
> > the part of voters requires an awareness of multiple points of view,
> > which is not likely to be obtained if voters bear the sole
> > responsibility of seeking out information on relevant issues. The news
> > media provide a forum for debates to take place, as well as moderating
> > and curating the arguments presented by all sides. It is, of course,
> > idealistic to suppose that media give equal, or even proportional,
> > representation to all opinions, but the fact that many media outlets
> > present themselves as nonpartisan sources of information makes them a
> > better forum for debate than online sources such as blogs, which are
> > typically maintained by one individual or a small group of people with
> > similar opinions

I am trying here to gather together reasonable people, of all trades,
with differing opinions, but hopefully the same set of facts.
> > Bob
> > > https://www.freepress.net/blog/what-net-neutrality
> > >
> > > It also contains a link to the proposed NPRM.
> > >
> > > I am however, under the impression that 2019-2022 bandwidths increased
> > > by a lot, coverage was extended to more folk, and cell phones
> > > subsidiezed by ACP kept a lot of people connected.
>
>
>
> --
> Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos



--
Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos