From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pj1-x1031.google.com (mail-pj1-x1031.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1031]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D96653CB47 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2023 14:27:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1031.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-28094a3b760so1890536a91.3 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2023 11:27:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1700249245; x=1700854045; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=+JPQycSIHKfqCN6bYQXRBmqKufDkwGcBsllEBfAgIq8=; b=OuuU4HXvG9zIsVDiwvTOt4QKgTKDJsiqYiFMud1mnMq603B4cn4nYjSf3r/gOVzxDl VNFpx4U1uWgLI9UWxqEJGP5jlr+q2Za/zcDpY0BO8nAg0wnKdBA6KGnTtB81o/rWdi8E IZM1XCe6y9OZnpz6uUaT7a650Jntf5ba63kdDuWzZrbboUKcknCC1QYJKljpA3mlO2pD Vs1/5e1LqPsmIP5KizEUUCb78+1QNNKT1UStRzvc/C31+vUwi0VJuldT9Ftth/id/ZfG x0yq1/KGsTtKo7ARff+0M+PNfEaV/oILiAOG5B+UyvrgCoxD2FspIrdqMvtaSFVwwzUa gTKA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1700249245; x=1700854045; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=+JPQycSIHKfqCN6bYQXRBmqKufDkwGcBsllEBfAgIq8=; b=T6aRMbB944ijsjKa1AkSw8C08GFzTYELj8Px60TndpIrOGdNiG3vtBmqc4w69ys0La cXIXKnwbt/SqwJ3uydbsMlF8frbAGCYk806gGSWkRSTflOtuSjHv+WuKsR6lq0QCGfm4 bNyR24BX7UJ5fXzs5PmanomavkA5QATifPJZua/E773UgdubGAlCRL517500d8edDNpg G5xN/mc4/U2ANnXRGLgCnz4cjvAf30zGaRRW1HYFV3ERMjTInowXxmZuMxz7FqdUMI/T 7NoH4zDmn+PExcCUO9oxKyj8OFBEBnPwex3omllPyg7IrXr0hz0+oCdnBuyD2nhdBFQv S6Xg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw8vmqXRYMo6r+dvvc0j9uf6KOYBd0fyiNze9WHFYpI2ULi87D9 N+kGDFQWk9QHwuYpCHe/jzxwOZh55C01Dw3AhMI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGyFWBlSzRxxhwzB7FGiC1qAKC8ToxliINTJpWrFI/KOx3NE0vDL7U7QuERAYWDVio2Lk7SooV3rUGMq1z588A= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4a8d:b0:280:a491:abff with SMTP id lp13-20020a17090b4a8d00b00280a491abffmr507944pjb.5.1700249244713; Fri, 17 Nov 2023 11:27:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <938D9D45-DADA-4291-BD8A-84E4257CEE49@apple.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2023 14:27:10 -0500 Message-ID: To: Sina Khanifar , =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspect?= =?UTF-8?Q?s_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [NNagain] A quick report from the WISPA conference X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2023 19:27:26 -0000 Dear Sina: I cannot help but wonder if t-mobile had got on top of the waveform test issues you were identifying for them back in oct 18th, 2022 yet? On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 1:17=E2=80=AFPM Sina Khanifar w= rote: > > I can't help but wonder tho... are you collecting any statistics, over ti= me, as to how much better the problem is getting? > > > We are collecting anonymized data, but we haven't analyzed it yet. If we = get a bit of time we'll look at that hopefully. > > And any chance they could do something similar explaining wifi? > > > I'm actually not exactly sure what mitigations exist for WiFi at the mome= nt - is there something I can read? > > On this note: when we were building our test one of the things we really = wished existed was a standardized way to test latency and throughput to rou= ters. It would be super helpful if there was a standard in consumer routers= that allowed users to both ping and fetch 0kB fils from their routers, and= also run download/upload tests. > > I think one more wispa conference will be a clean sweep of everyone in th= e fixed wireless market to not only adopt these algorithms for plan enforce= ment, but even more directly on the radios and more CPE. > > > T-Mobile has signed up 1m+ people to their new Home Internet over 5G, and= all of them have really meaningful bufferbloat issues. I've been pointing = folks who reach out to this thread about cake-autorate and sqm-autorate, bu= t ideally it would be fixed at a network level, just not sure how to apply = pressure (I'm in contact with the T-Mobile Home Internet team, but I think = this is above their heads). > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 8:15 PM, Dave Taht wrote: >> >> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:51 PM Sina Khanifar wrote: >> >> Positive or negative, I can claim a bit of credit for this video :). We'= ve been working with LTT on a few projects and we pitched them on doing som= ething around bufferbloat. We've seen more traffic to our Waveforn test tha= n ever before, which has been fun! >> >> Thank you. Great job with that video! And waveform has become the goto s= ite for many now. >> >> I can't help but wonder tho... are you collecting any statistics, over t= ime, as to how much better the problem is getting? >> >> And any chance they could do something similar explaining wifi? >> >> ... >> >> I was just at WISPA conference week before last. Preseem's booth >> (fq_codel) was always packed. Vilo living had put cake in their wifi 6 p= roduct. A >> keynote speaker had deployed it and talked about it with waveform result= s on the big screen (2k people there). A large wireless vendor demo'd priva= tely to me their flent results before/after cake on their next-gen radios..= . and people dissed tarana without me prompting for their bad bufferbloat..= . and the best thing of all that happened to me was... besides getting a hu= g from a young lady (megan) who'd salvaged her schooling in alaska using sq= m - I walked up to the paraqum booth >> (another large QoE middlebox maker centered more in india) and asked. >> >> "So... do y'all have fq_codel yet?" >> >> And they smiled and said: "No, we have something better... we've got cak= e." >> >> "Cake? What's that?" - I said, innocently. >> >> They then stepped me through their 200Gbps (!!) product, which uses a bu= nch of offloads, and can track rtt down to a ms with the intel ethernet car= d they were using. They'd modifed cake to provide 16 (?) levels of service,= and were running under dpdk (I am not sure if cake was). It was a great, c= onvincing pitch... >> >> ... then I told 'em who I was. There's a video of the in-both concert af= ter. >> >> ... >> >> The downside to me (and the subject of my talk) was that in nearly every= person I talked to, fq_codel was viewed as a means to better subscriber ba= ndwidth plan enforcement (which is admittedly the market that preseem pione= ered) and it was not understood that I'd got involved in this whole thing b= ecause I'd wanted an algorithm to deal with "rain fade", running directly o= n the radios. People wanted to use the statistics on the radios to drive th= e plan enforcement better >> (which is an ok approach, I guess), and for 10+ I'd been whinging about = the... physics. >> >> So I ranted about rfc7567 a lot and begged people now putting routerOS >> 7.2 and later out there (mikrotik is huge in this market), to kill their= fifos and sfqs at the native rates of the interfaces... and watch their ne= twork improve that way also. >> >> I think one more wispa conference will be a clean sweep of everyone in t= he fixed wireless market to not only adopt these algorithms for plan enforc= ement, but even more directly on the radios and more CPE. >> >> I also picked up enough consulting business to keep me busy the rest of = this year, and possibly more than I can handle (anybody looking?) >> >> I wonder what will happen at a fiber conference? >> >> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:45 PM Dave Taht via Bloat wrote: >> >> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 5:02 PM Stuart Cheshire wro= te: >> >> On 9 Oct 2022, at 06:14, Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast wrote: >> >> This was so massively well done, I cried. Does anyone know how to get in= touch with the ifxit folk? >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DUICh3ScfNWI >> >> I=E2=80=99m surprised that you liked this video. It seems to me that it = repeats all the standard misinformation. The analogy they use is the standa= rd terrible example of waiting in a long line at a grocery store, and the = =E2=80=9Csolution=E2=80=9D is letting certain traffic =E2=80=9Cjump the lin= e, angering everyone behind them=E2=80=9D. >> >> Accuracy be damned. The analogy to common experience resonates more. >> >> Some quotes from the video: >> >> it would be so much more efficient for them to let you skip the line and= just check out, especially since you=E2=80=99re in a hurry, but they=E2=80= =99re rudely refusing >> >> I think the person with the cheetos pulling out a gun and shooting every= one in front of him (AQM) would not go down well. >> >> to go back to our grocery store analogy this would be like if a worker s= aw you standing at the back ... and either let you skip to the front of the= line or opens up an express lane just for you >> >> Actually that analogy is fairly close to fair queuing. The multiple chec= ker analogy is one of the most common analogies in queue theory itself. >> >> The video describes the problem of bufferbloat, and then describes the s= ame failed solution that hasn=E2=80=99t worked for the last three decades. >> >> Hmm? It establishes the scenario, explains the problem *quickly*, disses= gamer routers for not getting it right.. *points to an accurate test*, and= then to the ideas and products that *actually work* with "smart queueing",= with a screenshot of the most common >> (eero's optimize for gaming and videoconferencing), and fq_codel and cak= e *by name*, and points folk at the best known solution available, openwrt. >> >> Bing, baddabang, boom. Also the comments were revealing. A goodly percen= tage already knew the problem, more than a few were inspired to take the te= st, >> there was a whole bunch of "Aha!" success stories and 360k views, which = is more people than we've ever been able to reach in for example, a nanog c= onference. >> >> I loved that folk taking the test actually had quite a few A results, wi= thout having had to do anything. At least some ISPs are getting it more rig= ht now! >> >> At this point I think gamers in particular know what "brands" we've trie= d to establish - "Smart queues", "SQM", "OpenWrt", fq_codel and now "cake" = are "good" things to have, and are stimulating demand by asking for them, I= t's certainly working out better and better for evenroute, firewalla, ubnt = and others, and I saw an uptick in questions about this on various user for= ums. >> >> I even like that there's a backlash now of people saying "fixing bufferb= loat doesn't solve everything" - >> >> Describing the obvious simple-minded (wrong) solution that any normal pe= rson would think of based on their personal human experience waiting in gro= cery stores and airports, is not describing the solution to bufferbloat. Th= e solution to bufferbloat is not that if you are privileged then you get to= =E2=80=9Cskip to the front of the line=E2=80=9D. The solution to bufferblo= at is that there is no line! >> >> I like the idea of a guru floating above a grocery cart with a better st= ring of explanations, explaining >> >> - "no, grasshopper, the solution to bufferbloat is no line... at all". >> >> With grocery stores and airports people=E2=80=99s arrivals are independe= nt and not controlled. There is no way for a grocery store or airport to ge= nerate backpressure to tell people to wait at home when a queue begins to f= orm. The key to solving bufferbloat is generating timely backpressure to pr= event the queue forming in the first place, not accepting a huge queue and = then deciding who deserves special treatment to get better service than all= the other peons who still have to wait in a long queue, just like before. >> >> I am not huge on the word "backpressure" here. Needs to signal the other= side to slow down, is more accurate. So might say timely signalling rather= than timely backpressure? >> >> Other feedback I got was that the video was too smarmy (I agree), differ= ent audiences than gamers need different forms of outreach... >> >> but to me, winning the gamers has always been one of the most important = things, as they make a lot of buying decisions, and they benefit the most f= or >> fq and packet prioritization as we do today in gamer routers and in cake= + qosify. >> >> maybe that gets in the way of more serious markets. Certainly I would li= ke another video explaining what goes wrong with videoconferencing. >> >> Stuart Cheshire >> >> -- >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https= ://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352= 320-FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> _______________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >> >> -- >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https= ://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352= 320-FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > --=20 :( My old R&D campus is up for sale: https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos