From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pj1-x1031.google.com (mail-pj1-x1031.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1031]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FDF03CB37; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 18:22:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1031.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-28019b66ad5so4513847a91.3; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 15:22:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1699917738; x=1700522538; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=XNpF5Ssc+jvWazVGFx2tH0Ozd2XDRKpbBdbFdMNwaAg=; b=D4efX+gxNFMdWv4sd8/i5Ok8R38Ocr4tIZAQMhDrGlzaL4pwRbewxwCY2fXScnvqjx Cj9+IeNt6zHp4C7nKG4a57Tenp31JplsDCaX2wU/mql4HPySrm+2pnzT10wF3SlrE+Ol 7V9HoLZlTnlOGDJNpckjdRee741NJdM42gW/IagqlNyuLF3L9rVvD5qsqf217NI6TX3s rtugKfriDi5693tU0LB6bdHpO1GRLWL6OWqHne06n+eCWgOZe4BEsNmZfDQUDnLHFUZL OdCOpgkrVlnowfEz2rqcv9TFI45gl/jtD+ivhNAJ6eBPTj0wg24js/Sdgbl/BqTYIK3m +H4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1699917738; x=1700522538; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=XNpF5Ssc+jvWazVGFx2tH0Ozd2XDRKpbBdbFdMNwaAg=; b=Ic8kfU+hxuP3031Lzcvo3/2b42E8/ik4ZpiSHub5QBwTHfdrXv1Yhsc+rwLlNv55Do DZa5tqPLmp3rmuI/2/APA9E+j4bbiX94qTeJb5kaYG8cAtnzuu0InCkxws+/luP6FEi1 R0d+b/WxH7uRp9/+10oOAHgqDJEll514FvzXTELiAxLbBtnbKQq6ImQFfFp2A9wQOJBr Jyha9Jav4W2tYjO0+uNB5GGU2eiQkrkRUguLb2aopkeehbbzSQXL/g6CQ9Oeb14VLwKu YZl85lnByDLMWp35PPZLwhvY4odlfvvW1ZuxQQs4lrH6Lqlxp7yzfMLTDmIMEzMetPuJ YUEA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy5tAsLXXOjBmCxCmw4NUaTW2hqOIQ5QqEmGy7wrU5ZzISB0+xn sGAxhe9r041uhTZf5znmHZ+M5hGVcEgH6XJA3nI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IERdJiJ9d4XTQeqXolmwjfa762LvcfOUk1HrMtAj23BasenxS7yv0dNzDpt0TqKOyM3f120+RvkKbc9Hb72oD8= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:db8e:b0:280:cc88:2a46 with SMTP id h14-20020a17090adb8e00b00280cc882a46mr8417245pjv.4.1699917738204; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 15:22:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 18:22:05 -0500 Message-ID: To: dan Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= , Dave Taht via Starlink Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [NNagain] bluetooth occupancy sensing X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 23:22:19 -0000 To the tune of dan's comments at the end, today's hackernews conversation and blog post about what can be done, cheaply, today with a tiny risc-v bluetooth sensor: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D38252566 Somewhat related is "the thing", given to the USA by the soviet union in 1945, an absolutely brilliant device. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device) In terms of the discussion above, we have met the enemy, and they is us. On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 1:19=E2=80=AFPM dan wrote: > > I have a business that does various sensing including AG market as well a= s bar/restaurant and produce. We use LoRaWAN because all other techs were = far too costly and/or low performing. I'll comment in-line. > > On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 5:44=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht w= rote: >> >> (I am hoping others on this list with real-world AG experience can >> chime in? I enjoy realworld stories about present solutions and pain >> points[2]) >> >> I have often been dubious of the 5g hope to dominate any major >> component of a smart ag architecture except perhaps FWA, (where >> starlink is poised and people also want to run fiber) to give it a >> good run for the money- 5g chips are too big, too hard to power, and >> too complex, and come with a monthly billing model and other >> centralized requirements that make organic evolution and solid support >> in remote environments dicy and expensive. > > > 5G is FAR too costly for this. The AG market and many markets that could= benefit from sensors are far to price conscious. 5G as well as catm and n= b-iot are great if you have a very small number of highly mobile sensors, b= ut if you need a high number of sensors it's far far far too costly. And i= t's very difficult to run private networks so it's essentially stuck in the= hands of major carriers. Just look at the catm/nb-iot market, it's barely= alive. > > lorawan sensors can be extremely cheap, just a few dollars, and run for m= onths to years on a battery. I've placed lorawan asset trackers in package= s and tracked them across country accurately and cheaply. A $15 sensor's c= hirps can be extrapolated into location tracking as well as identification = of impact and temps from the sensor. We currently track a bait (as in fish= ing bait) company's cartons in a few hundred mile radius as well as their c= oolers and freezers. We get temps, humidity, and pressure and can extract = door opens from the pressure and a trigger we have built on the sensors (sh= arp increase is a door close, sharp decrease is a door open). We triangula= te location from gateway locations and wifi beacons much like you get reaso= nably accurate locations on your PC w/o GPS using semtek's location service= s. > > I have a small number of catm devices, including catm on my victron globa= l relays and a few GPS sensors which work great, but I only use them becaus= e I need long distance roaming. > > >> >> >> I freely concede that I may be wrong, that with sufficient subsidies, >> we will end up hanging the equivalent of a cellphone off of every >> suitably large piece of gear and ship all the data up to the cloud, >> rather than pre-process locally. Certainly the benefits of gps and >> drones are being shown every day, along with satellite weather and >> other forms of satellite analysis. [1] >> >> But the 5g sensor market? No. Nowadays smart sensors are easily >> constructed out of wifi devices such as these which cost 5 dollars or >> less: >> >> >> https://www.amazon.com/DORHEA-Development-Microcontroller-NodeMCU-32S-ES= P-WROOM-32/dp/B086MJGFVV/ref=3Dasc_df_B086MJGFVV/ >> >> And the more meshy LoRA stuff now has much better range (4 miles), at >> low complexity and power also. > > > LoRa isn't actually meshy, you can run some simblance of a mesh on top of= LoRa radios but this is really not necessary. We have lorawan GPS sensors= that have pinged at 110km away in clear line of site. We have refrigerato= r lorawan sensors that have been read 2km away in a city at other client's = locations. Lorawan has very cheap gateways that can easily be installed a= t client locations for under $100 that can forward to a number of 'national= ' services (aws iot, helium, the things network) as well as your own lora s= tack such as chirpstack. > > >> >> >> then there are things like amazon sidewalk: >> https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=3DUTF8&node=3D21328123011 > > Sidewalk is a hybrid not a wireless tech per se, but includes lora (not l= orawan) and is very well distributed. I have a few test kits for this and = have been very very impressed by coverage. > >> >> >> And airtags. > > airtags suck. Slow chirpers, only really useful for tracking with apple'= s kit. I wouldn't consider this a player in the sensor market. > >> >> >> [1] On the other hand rigorous analysis of the food we produce has >> recently discovered a marked decline in the percentage of nutritious >> minerals over the past 100 years. Please see: >> >> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09637486.2021.1981831 >> >> How smart is that? > > monocrops I would assume. Plus longer transit times, earlier harvests an= d 'truck ripening'. I would imagine flash freezing of produce as well. >> >> >> [2] Massive subsidy and diversion of river resources to the water >> hungry california almond industry during the last 7 years of drought >> led to the cancellation of the salmon fishing season last year. > > Are you coming for my Almond milk?!?! > >> >> >> You should hear some of the invective that I used to hear aimed at >> "the f-ing vegetarians" along the docks I frequent in half moon bay. >> That I used to hear, anyway, The docks are eerily silent, the workers >> at other jobs, the boats not going out for anything except crab and >> squid. >> >> How smart is that? The California water table is a disaster, too. I >> vastly prefer salmon to almonds personally.... >> >> I guess a meta point is easily gathering tactical data is one thing, >> sharing it sanely another, deciding on how to use it strategically, >> another. > > > There are real dangers in collecting and publishing data unfortunately. = I have a few sort of a creepy anecdotes from beta testing sensors at a pizz= a place. This is based around 1, 5, 10, 15 minute sensor readings from dra= gion temp, humidity, and pressure sensors with triggors on rapid changes to= any reading. > > We were able to predict freezure failure 3 weeks in advance on 15 minute = reads by analysing the condensor pump runtimes. > We were able to identify which freezers were the oldest or last refurbish= ed a couple of ways. The condensor cycle times compared to the decrease in= temps show how long it takes to cool the box which accurately described th= e age of the unit, and the time it took the temp to rise accurately determi= ned the state of the door seals. between the two we could identify which c= oolers were new, which were refurbished, and which were old and needed a re= furb. This was over a number of stores in the chain. > that's not so creepy, but it's data extracted from 15 minute intervals th= at didn't directly measure the condesor or doors. > > However, where it gets a bit more creepy is that we were able to extract = when workers went on break. accurately. No door opens, no temp drops, no= changes in pressure meant no workers working, they were out back smoking. = We could identify the smoke breaks PERFECTLY. That means low pressence in= the front of the store and a back door propped open. > > We could also identify the food delivery by changes in the walk-in cooler= pressure, and rise in temps, and very slow drop in temps when freezer was = running. That means a back door propped open. > > We could identify if someone was sitting in the office, or if there were = more that 1 person in the office. pressure, temp, and humidity all altered= from people being in the room and by a predictable amount. > > > This seems pretty begning data and private data that the public wouldnt s= ee, but that we could extrapolate this very accurately from sensors in the = walk-in and reach in coolers should give a little pause about massive senso= r networks and publicly accessible data. You don't know what you might exp= ose and what security conserns might pop out from data 'innocently' collect= ed. Big data is very dangerous. --=20 :( My old R&D campus is up for sale: https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos