Re: [NNagain] [Starlink] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's RDOF Application

[Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>]

On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 2:13 PM David Bray, PhD via Nnagain
<nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> This GPT(human)bot was responding to the engineered prompt:  >>why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services?
>
> As it's Friday, this GPT(human)bot bandwidth has been fully utilized for the week. Our servers will be back-on line come Monday.
>
> Wishing everyone (human or machine) a wonderful weekend ahead!

Sometimes the best way to value something is to get away from it for a
while. I recommend everybody log off... maybe take a walk
in the park, see some friends, make some music, visit a library, play
golf, go fishing, spend time with your loved ones, fire up a card
game...

stop with the technology for a while and re-engage your other senses.

The internet will still be here when you get back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMoPR2IA2Uk

>
> On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 5:10 PM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>
>> I don't disagree with anything that you say below, but the discussion was on the
>> topic of starlink vs fiber, with the person I was responding to claiming that we
>> needed to have women in charge of the Internet companies because of telehealth
>> as well.
>>
>> I'm a remote worker and VERY aware of how limiting video calls are compared to
>> in-person meetings.
>>
>> David Lang
>>
>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, David Bray, PhD wrote:
>>
>> > There’s good evidence that physical health can be done over LEO as long as
>> > it isn’t low latency dependent. Of course our illustrious listserv founder
>> > Dave Taht will be quick to point out high latency is also found via
>> > ground-based connections too.
>> >
>> > That said, there is still a lot of research debate on whether mental health
>> > services can be delivered effectively over video in general - regardless of
>> > LEO or not. The concern is two fold:
>> >
>> > * video is suboptimal to detect tiny tells and other signatures of a
>> > patient developing a relationship with a health provider
>> >
>> > * 2D video actually is worse for brainstorming and creative ideation. One
>> > might say so what relative to delivering healthcare, except the evidence
>> > showing that video is worse for brainstorming indicates there’s actually a
>> > continual subconscious confusion when folks do video calls prompted by the
>> > body trying to discern if the one or more disembodied heads are friend or
>> > foe. Since we cannot see a person’s hands and body movements we don’t know
>> > if they’re coming to attack us or not.
>> >
>> > So future generations may look back and decide that with video calls we
>> > were literally messing with our brains’ own natural biological processes?
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 16:42 David Lang via Nnagain <
>> > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services?
>> >>
>> >> I've used it personally.
>> >>
>> >> Even if women use telehealth more than men, that doesn't say that women
>> >> have any
>> >> particular advantage in moving the bits around that make telehealth
>> >> possible.
>> >>
>> >> David Lang
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Women are the primary users and providers of telehealth services. They
>> >> are
>> >>> using broadband to care for our population. They also run most of the
>> >>> addiction services across our country, whatever the addiction may be. So
>> >>> gender actually matters. Ask them as providers. Telehealth doesn't work
>> >> over
>> >>> LEO (nor does it matter much for men on boats.) Same for distance
>> >> learning.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >> https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/women-more-likely-telehealth-patients-providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153/
>> >>>
>> >>> As Washington considers which virtual care flexibilities should remain
>> >> in
>> >>> place post-COVID-19, experts are flagging that paring back telehealth
>> >> access
>> >>> and affordability will disproportionately affect women, even as a
>> >> growing
>> >>> share of startups emerge to address women’s unique health needs.
>> >>>
>> >>> While women are more likely than men to visit doctors and consume
>> >> healthcare
>> >>> services in general, telehealth seems to be uniquely attractive to women.
>> >>>
>> >>> Bob
>> >>>> who exactly do you think is calling for there to be no Internet
>> >>>> access? and what in the world does the sex of individuals have to do
>> >>>> with shipping bits around?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Starlink (and hopefully it's future competitors) provides a way to get
>> >>>> Internet service to everyone without having to run fiber to every
>> >>>> house.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> As for the parallels with rural electrification, if that problem were
>> >>>> to be faced today, would the right answer be massive public agencies
>> >>>> to build and run miles of wire from massive central power plants? or
>> >>>> would the right answer be solar + batteries in individual houses for
>> >>>> the most rural folks, with small modular reactors to power the larger
>> >>>> population areas?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Just because there was only one way to achieve a goal in the past
>> >>>> doesn't mean that approach is the best thing to do today.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> David Lang
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Hi All,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> We're trying to modernize America. LBJ helped do it for electricity
>> >>>>> decades ago. It's our turn to step up to the plate. Tele-health and
>> >>>>> distance learning requires us to do so. There is so much to follow.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> A reminder what many women went through before LBJ showed up. I'm
>> >>>>> skeptical a patriarchy under Musk is even close to capable. We
>> >> probably
>> >>>>> need a woman to lead us, or at least motivate us to do our best work
>> >> for
>> >>>>> our country and to be an example to the world.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> A Hill Country farm wife had to do her chores even if she was ill – no
>> >>>>> matter how ill. Because Hill Country women were too poor to afford
>> >> proper
>> >>>>> medical care they often suffered perineal tears in childbirth. During
>> >> the
>> >>>>> 1930s, the federal government sent physicians to examine a sampling of
>> >>>>> Hill Country women. The doctors found that, out of 275 women, 158 had
>> >>>>> perineal tears. Many of them, the team of gynecologists reported, were
>> >>>>> third-degree tears, “tears so bad that it is difficult to see how they
>> >>>>> stand on their feet.” But they were standing on their feet, and doing
>> >> all
>> >>>>> the chores that Hill Country wives had always done – hauling the
>> >> water,
>> >>>>> hauling the wood, canning, washing, ironing, helping with the
>> >> shearing,
>> >>>>> the plowing and the picking.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Because there was no electricity.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Bob
>> >>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Hi Frantisek,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain
>> >>>>>>>> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Thus, technically speaking, one would like the advantages of satcom
>> >>>>>>>> such as starlink, to be at least 5gbit/s in 10 years time, to
>> >> overcome
>> >>>>>>>> the 'tangled fiber' problem.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> No, not really. Starlink was about to address the issue of digital
>> >>>>>>>> divide -
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>   I beg to differ. Starlink is a commercial enterprise with the goal
>> >> to
>> >>>>>>> make a profit by offering (usable) internet access essentially
>> >>>>>>> everywhere; it is not as far as I can tell an attempt at
>> >> specifically
>> >>>>>>> reducing the digital divide (were often an important factor is not
>> >>>>>>> necessarily location but financial means).
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Every Inernet company " commercial enterprise with the goal to make a
>> >>>>>> profit by offering (usable) internet" don't dismiss a company because
>> >>>>>> of that. Starlink (and the other Satellite ISPs) all exist to service
>> >>>>>> people who can't use traditional wired infrastructure
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> delivering internet to those 640k locations, where there is
>> >> literally
>> >>>>>>>> none today. Fiber will NEVER get there. And it will get there, it
>> >> will
>> >>>>>>>> be like 10 years down the road.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>   This is IHO the wrong approach to take. The goal needs to be a
>> >>>>>>> universal FTTH access network (with the exception of extreme
>> >> locations,
>> >>>>>>> no need to pull fiber up to the highest Bivouac shelter on Mt.
>> >> Whitney).
>> >>>>>>> And f that takes a decade or two, so be it, this is infrastructure
>> >> that
>> >>>>>>> will keep on helping for many decades once rolled-out. However given
>> >>>>>>> that time frame one should consider work-arounds for the interim
>> >> period.
>> >>>>>>> I would have naively thought starlink would qualify for that from a
>> >>>>>>> technical perspective, but then the FCC documents actually
>> >> discussion
>> >>>>>>> requirements and how they were or were not met/promised by starlink
>> >> was
>> >>>>>>> mostly redacted.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> what do you consider 'extreme locations'? how long a run between
>> >>>>>> houses is 'too far'?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> we've seen the failure of commercial fiber monopolies in cities with
>> >>>>>> housing density of several houses per acre (and even where there are
>> >>>>>> apartment complexes there as well) because it's not profitable enough.
>> >>>>>> When you get into areas where it's 'how many acres per house' the cost
>> >>>>>> of running FTTH gets very high. I don't think this is the majority of
>> >>>>>> the population of the US any longer (but I don't know for sure), but
>> >>>>>> it's very clearly the majority of the area of the US. And once you get
>> >>>>>> out of the major metro areas, even getting fiber to every town or
>> >>>>>> village becomes a major undertaking.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Is running fiber 30 miles to support a village of 700 people an
>> >>>>>> 'extreme location'? let me introduce you to Vermontville MI
>> >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermontville,_Michigan which is less
>> >>>>>> than an hours drive from the state capitol.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> David Lang
>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>> Nnagain mailing list
>> >>>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>> >>>>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> Nnagain mailing list
>> >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>> >>
>> >
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Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos