From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oo1-xc30.google.com (mail-oo1-xc30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F05253CB37 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2023 15:27:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oo1-xc30.google.com with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-57de6e502fcso757405eaf.3 for ; Thu, 05 Oct 2023 12:27:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1696534043; x=1697138843; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=bAB1/82eiu0WCNp4Z7E1CtInnFobm5QBXBr9asqbCnk=; b=PreFlmY4w4pb4oZjoRBuKJ28ZKcHZnm+DawuQ9b/ddhIVvsV3W0VaDZfqE5nQ0jKrR fDNQhVfZ2RxETPjs1kcEgKbkJ9D7EPN6BJpgQ2nD3QRBXWj2IdVJevfs62cHlV7/24V2 qCobWH90Sq3U4wIZCnS6z2cUgaTRsw+LgSMLTG9wljsEI2hvRQN4mIoOEf0YhlnBJMoD nvC3lEeCFNdJkJqd2FSmIpI00COeMOHYFU3McrLYZs2ApxNLYWBPuSZLXcTXAWA+Xv+8 WmQR8DfxhM8VUXVmH9cHcZF6kBH1qINXci3Yt39JpwBhUORYYqnrDyDLimc2UziywYcS L+WQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1696534043; x=1697138843; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=bAB1/82eiu0WCNp4Z7E1CtInnFobm5QBXBr9asqbCnk=; b=pZI60vevSvJtBupitDirRMpY/W9jEgdqvonnj8/ACJcpceoqskzhL8mLeo3e1wPboY /XJpIcBVOkgLDCq2Ssa27oieKA+wG8ltSWC9X2Qr21xIJcsC+6gML6j4chKk5kwWxzhN t7z/nHSnugMXPa8FUDrIzIu1Os9vcbK7PppwEFbPiI5/bj6T34dUt2Xw/URX0dWOEOIV aTljv02Bo6a1kJad72vk+cc7sh7HD/a4HttxJFX/cI2+tC9juluHdmq/ojln1Sogf7AX 3ulxseCcsfHvNN9vOwlaTQVlWgkQFmjZV1r1LoEzrG/oFoEjypm7gMMDG0qNuj65QxSb bf5g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzmqnEA8yilGBe/7QwakjHa6ffgxpeuFcXMlotgDJDmlWYisZiP d3iz5weYymAkU+zjSK1AAIBDDnkeLNGrQiEEbVo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGyWjfZxqpNC/xZPHwEa2wnSvKvJ2gek5ztDo5V3V83tVqQ/ff9e81lmIf35q61k8EZdLskWaxVfjztXsfupL0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6358:291b:b0:14d:b8d3:97e5 with SMTP id y27-20020a056358291b00b0014db8d397e5mr5897827rwb.20.1696534043019; Thu, 05 Oct 2023 12:27:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5so3r00n-31pn-14s7-7775-08731s3s551r@ynat.uz> <7508FE73-A154-4CBA-984C-748A80C5FFEC@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7508FE73-A154-4CBA-984C-748A80C5FFEC@gmail.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 12:27:10 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jonathan Morton , =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspect?= =?UTF-8?Q?s_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [NNagain] better deployment options X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2023 19:27:24 -0000 I strongly agree with jonathan's analysis... and moving this to the nnlist On Thu, Sep 28, 2023 at 9:54=E2=80=AFPM Jonathan Morton via Bloat wrote: > > > On 29 Sep, 2023, at 1:19 am, David Lang via Bloat wrote: > > > > Dave T called out earlier that the rise of bittorrent was a large part = of the inital NN discussion here in the US. But a second large portion was = a money grab from ISPs thinking that they could hold up large paid websites= (netflix for example) for additional fees by threatening to make their ser= vice less useful to their users (viewing their users as an asset to be mark= eted to the websites rather than customers to be satisfied by providing the= m access to the websites) > > > > I don't know if a new round of "it's not fair that Netflix doesn't pay = us for the bandwidth to service them" would fall flat at this point or not. > > I think there were three more-or-less separate concerns which have, over = time, fallen under the same umbrella: > > > 1: Capacity-seeking flows tend to interfere with latency-sensitive flows= , and the "induced demand" phenomenon means that increases in link rate do = not in themselves solve this problem, even though they may be sold as doing= so. > > This is directly addressed by properly-sized buffers and/or AQM, and even= better by FQ and SQM. It's a solved problem, so long as the solutions are= deployed. It's not usually necessary, for example, to specifically enhanc= e service for latency-sensitive traffic, if FQ does a sufficiently good job= . An increased link rate *does* enhance service quality for both latency-s= ensitive and capacity-seeking traffic, provided FQ is in use. > > > 2: Swarm traffic tends to drown out conventional traffic, due to congest= ion control algorithms which try to be more-or-less fair on a per-flow basi= s, and the substantially larger number of parallel flows used by swarm traf= fic. This also caused subscribers using swarm traffic to impair the servic= e of subscribers who had nothing to do with it. > > FQ on a per-flow basis (see problem 1) actually amplifies this effect, an= d I think it was occasionally used as an argument for *not* deploying FQ. = ISPs' initial response was to outright block swarm traffic where they could= identify it, which was then softened to merely throttling it heavily, befo= re NN regulations intervened. Usage quotas also showed up around this time= , and were probably related to this problem. > > This has since been addressed by several means. ISPs may use FQ on a per= -subscriber basis to prevent one subscriber's heavy traffic from degrading = service for another. Swarm applications nowadays tend to employ altruistic= congestion control which deliberately compensates for the large number of = flows, and/or mark them with one or more of the Least Effort class DSCPs. = Hence, swarm applications are no longer as damaging to service quality as t= hey used to be. Usage quotas, however, still remain in use as a profit cen= tre, to the point where an "unlimited" service is a rare and precious speci= men in many jurisdictions. > > > 3: ISPs merged with media distribution companies, creating a conflict of= interest in which the media side of the business wanted the internet side = to actively favour "their own" media traffic at the expense of "the competi= tion". Some ISPs began to actively degrade Netflix traffic, in particular = by refusing to provision adequate peering capacity at the nodes through whi= ch Netflix traffic predominated, or by zero-rating (for the purpose of usag= e quotas) traffic from their own media empire while refusing to do the same= for Netflix traffic. > > **THIS** was the true core of Net Neutrality. NN regulations forced ISPs= to carry Netflix traffic with reasonable levels of service, even though th= ey didn't want to for purely selfish and greedy commercial reasons. NN suc= ceeded in curbing an anti-competitive and consumer-hostile practice, which = I am perfectly sure would resume just as soon as NN regulations were repeal= ed. > > And this type of practice is just the sort of thing that technologies lik= e L4S are designed to support. The ISPs behind L4S actively do not want a = technology that works end-to-end over the general Internet. They want some= thing that can provide a domination service within their own walled gardens= . That's why L4S is a NN hazard, and why they actively resisted all attemp= ts to displace it with SCE. > > > All of the above were made more difficult to solve by the monopolistic na= ture of the Internet service industry. It is actively difficult for Intern= et users to move to a truly different service, especially one based on a di= fferent link technology. When attempts are made to increase competition, f= or example by deploying a publicly-funded network, the incumbents actively = sabotage those attempts by any means they can. Monopolies are inherently c= ustomer-hostile, and arguments based on market forces fail in their presenc= e. > > - Jonathan Morton > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat --=20 Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.htm= l Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos