From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pg1-x52a.google.com (mail-pg1-x52a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61BB93B29D for ; Sun, 1 Oct 2023 13:15:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52a.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-53fbf2c42bfso12297586a12.3 for ; Sun, 01 Oct 2023 10:15:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1696180526; x=1696785326; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=t7f/+/HzyrtlqbOJdto18LqkMWpEA/04eetYbCzOXac=; b=YoeMQCSiput/VJAiA9Rxb06X+jxo3mxP3MFoKZZWZBqgZ9iUQNtvrZ8V8/AiNihM8I Xxb10lE0M9KRQaKmOPoE9Nq2nI+h2Wq3+gkRVGBJ3K/l9ivRK56q9ioenEzxW168oFkz xAVGsmIJ0fMhBCT1AXfI87+PFV68cyNZEHIGx9aNDw9yv1v5vUqiTkOPj2Uo/ppZx/oR V+GAYSLkW2573SWbgvWHjxkNY2OHLJtevvDadLMCVg84fsQIU3gwOetX7d1AVKAMxv/O Dv1nNk+FIkkLrzP1IrOcaITlMvujt6HyiPyJ6+17Ja4M+5RJi0/OvmyQygqUQKvCjxR8 CKLQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1696180526; x=1696785326; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=t7f/+/HzyrtlqbOJdto18LqkMWpEA/04eetYbCzOXac=; b=sFeZh5BmIb1x4x/4M0UTeraS9dCZ/TuZYzeGvuiFzEvsCz4fDOtl43RUSiUaKh1eXO df3+sCFF+17/hWmvzA549YrPBII6/GyUL4rQhXHJ4iwmNVOqlZxhLNT6ww5+Xi6PcDU+ YRo6uZ95M4J75Nx19gpJYBTHIGclpIqwUf23fY00fN69mQGmtBqfmBSeDhqNoJ9BMRa8 oViWDWeckDkX21mfFC2oSaimrELdXRfTLaCr+oISKfuEb3cOs3AZUaMq0yyFs1yqTrOo LsIt2oSyx744BLNqdTEeefoSnEiccK575Aon9xxIKcid79i8LRCgyJ6BqwArnBcLZWIK HRRA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyEWxIQFIAIHSRfBI+KE5Hd6iju0GUgfoytF10ToWIg4o9aNuMh j++FqT3ihijXjyB9fI3F/AL/mfNCATVeiuU6pIr/65Knx3o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHIryIu437wwa63NDftCngNo0RDVaIHSKm6VigooNI4a/TVQm72YXd0zBQLzQo7gJQ8bxbCqwwPPq2T47oy+Lk= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1e0d:b0:263:41d2:4e2 with SMTP id pg13-20020a17090b1e0d00b0026341d204e2mr10165676pjb.32.1696180525700; Sun, 01 Oct 2023 10:15:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Dave Taht Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 10:15:14 -0700 Message-ID: To: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [NNagain] Some backstory on the nn-again mailing list X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2023 17:15:27 -0000 I am pleased to see over 100 people have signed up for this list already. I am not really planning on "activating" this list until tuesday or so, after a few more people I have reached out to sign up (or not). I would like y=C2=B4all to seek out people with differing opinions and background, in the hope that one day, we can shed more light than heat about the science and technologies that "govern" the internet, to those that wish to regulate it. In the short term, I would like enough of us to agree on an open letter, or NPRM filing,and to put out a press release(s), in the hope that this time, the nn and title ii discussion is more about real, than imagined, internet issues. [1] I am basically planning to move the enormous discussion from over here, titled "network neutrality back in the news": https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/2023-September/thread.html to here. I expect that we are going to be doing this discussion for a long time, and many more issues besides my short term ones will be discussed. I hope that we can cleanly isolate technical issues from political ones, in particular, and remain civil, and factual, and avoid hyperbole. Since the FCC announcement of a proposed NPRM as of Oct 19th... my own initial impetus was to establish why the NN debate first started in 2005, and the conflict between the legal idea of "common carriage" vs what the internet was actually capable of in mixing voip and bittorrent, in "The Bufferbloat vs Bittorrent vs Voip" phase. Jim Gettys, myself, and Jason Livinggood have weighed in on their stories on linkedin, twitter, and elsewhere. There was a second phase, somewhat triggered by netflix, that Jonathan Morton summarized in that thread, ending in the first establishment of some title ii rules in 2015. The third phase was when title ii was rescinded... and all that has happened since. I, for one, am fiercely proud about how our tech community rose to meet the challenge of covid, and how, for example, videoconferencing mostly just worked for so many, after a postage stamp sized start in 2012[2]. The oh-too-faint-praise for that magnificent effort from higher levels rankles me greatly, but I will try to get it under control. And this fourth phase, opening in a few weeks, is more, I think about privacy and power than all the other phases, and harmonization with EU legislation, perhaps. What is on the table for the industry and internet is presently unknown. So here we "NN-again". Lay your issues out! [1] I have only had one fight with the FCC. Won it handily: https://www.computerworld.com/article/2993112/vint-cerf-and-260-experts-giv= e-fcc-a-plan-to-secure-wi-fi-routers.html In this case this is not so much a fight, I hope, but a collaborative effort towards a better, faster, lower latency, and more secure, internet for everyone. [2] https://archive.org/details/video1_20191129 --=20 Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.htm= l Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos