From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ot1-x32b.google.com (mail-ot1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 827053B29D for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2023 20:08:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-6c4fc2ce697so2367373a34.0 for ; Sat, 07 Oct 2023 17:08:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1696723684; x=1697328484; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=hjx0C19GMhZ/jU1jq3RljLvnSACXpSLkQkTl55mDysI=; b=IzkiOR/mbbQLtaoHXfsvSFqIKk/SuGszLSJAPUOlBXseCNjf9DrtELx/JlK6XAUiXz J9UhngorJ+Z7XPWw/6CiV9znbOrbgpn0UQykfgBJGTc5rdfG8SNyzRNetSVfEsZjSzW2 npFthmhyzJG9rSE7vvBQEzy8c3GSPRVbVur2FeqEjteWqEg+PnBjSFdn6X8xL2LVB1sL l75GpopF5MxpCpCnMqT8PWEcLyYtq8g3PedY9zKIgrLN6gchdiMEE8jSl6CJpzEGbYlF kVlccKcUEsx7ZK9uxR75mGxFprMd5sAypG31RLKc9Oj0hEYZZBW1SxusembQ8IGR+ubP 3O3g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1696723684; x=1697328484; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=hjx0C19GMhZ/jU1jq3RljLvnSACXpSLkQkTl55mDysI=; b=LScdyAHNB3pvNHlsU3YWyDbJ82ZsTw+DCXdhts8y5HVdHGroroxTjWA4KUy3zDdCAF K86d9OqjKCBxgBSBwxe+ykjVMFjt7LTuXRXlCQnsya1U7y0TS0r7YhTDil+RxZOBg7/M 3ZBfMQr2TxntGQh4ZxVQkFCboIvchaoCu8s9g1Ul8K7noJsC5SsWBhEmyE9lXfRCsSVy cCSLFhcgwZoueChN7giIaqqhCwBRhfhPCf+YCDdVoo2r2sU294NmExQQMgsrmtpkHwR3 M2fn4f5b/I/p/PbaF20X8iAWlRQ7p2h3MmgtUpBUXzJUITGWloh2b5tnKztUAKIYGsRJ wCkQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx5Sm+kWf+J+PTDMQ4JhPhEOd/A7v4SDom0510BB3Llc1lDnyeS Qs6CsNxeMFcOmAf57D6AW0DHNydOZYEnGJiFbpL8zdQZq/g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGPjO30CzhuEpe13RG1+AN6ZOJTfee1tqnjmp8UGxpQVz4Jar5/SWNNvXqrPnorBQxqroTuWjJbcB8p+4IFVSA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6358:2825:b0:143:9dcb:1d with SMTP id k37-20020a056358282500b001439dcb001dmr12444510rwb.21.1696723683961; Sat, 07 Oct 2023 17:08:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2023 17:07:50 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [NNagain] The non-death of DSL X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2023 00:08:05 -0000 I had found henning shulzerine's projections as to the death of POTs very compelling when he presented at ietf 86 back in 2013. I cannot find the video, but there are all sorts of great charts and data here worth reflecting about and updating. https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1TG0f18_ySAb4rJtC2SGeYPoY2oMdh0NS/ed= it?usp=3Dsharing&ouid=3D107942175615993706558&rtpof=3Dtrue&sd=3Dtrue Unfortunately he presently has a gig with the NTIA and probably cannot participate here in the current contexts (although I like to think all that we will end up discussing will impact multiple agencies, NIST, and FEMA, for example) Still looking for better DSL data.... On Sat, Oct 7, 2023 at 2:22=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht wrot= e: > > I have a lot to unpack from this: > > https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-397257A1.pdf > > the first two on my mind from 2005 are: "FCC adopted its first open > internet policy" and "Competitiveness" As best as I recall, (and > please correct me), this led essentially to the departure of all the > 3rd party DSL providers from the field. I had found something > referencing this interpretation that I cannot find right now, but I do > clearly remember all the DSL services you could buy from in the early > 00s, and how few you can buy from now. Obviously there are many other > possible root causes. > > DSL continued to get better and evolve, but it definately suffers from > many reports of degraded copper quality, but does an estimate exist > for how much working DSL is left? > > Q0) How much DSL is in the EU? > Q1) How much DSL is left in the USA? > Q2) What form is it? (VDSL, etc?) > > Did competition in DSL vanish because of or not of an FCC related order? > > -- > Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.h= tml > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos --=20 Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.htm= l Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos