From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oa1-x2a.google.com (mail-oa1-x2a.google.com [IPv6:2001:4860:4864:20::2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3EC73B29E for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2024 13:06:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oa1-x2a.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-27010ae9815so384051fac.2 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2024 10:06:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1723741568; x=1724346368; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=oDDyP8ROLJIt6ZCfsL0AtfVaG4Xwu7Grcus/Pbq2z/U=; b=l3g6pSeHWV3AzronKARfHuiQxAnNkJOQrpqS3G2IgsbWASNRlsqpPiH78kmLIFqYf4 VODKoMmOrjUscfZhmecG3NQ3EFIt1q4VnUUhTHm8wIO9p4M+HBLsWwGbFT5/YUrN8U2G MvZllwjxMmXminlcnLLOx7nlnjnC9aYuCkIsnm0pRRoqtBbWCLG8LFe9jXKOyMy4zN3w JZ/3IEd9cwD700eEw+C1zxwrljcxjKADotr+cqG97SAtmzkti8xDrRPpv7mn8vYmT1Qz gCZnilaoSvGNN9szGOXFLF5TNnO+MiBHiikOPPrCDqkZz+QVQbc6sjBEqrFvxOY/n0El Dn9w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1723741568; x=1724346368; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=oDDyP8ROLJIt6ZCfsL0AtfVaG4Xwu7Grcus/Pbq2z/U=; b=h3cT/fU2+cWh4goCuXnha0jTLHt33sHsVSmT56bZZ+y6suHr+FsfZ5hdsy1YdW0/TR jluLWNc8RrizelOQ8/fsnBo7Yy4V3jENvBkmUPDIZvjGZO6g8iwSb6lluC+KKxx66s7Z n8LZ8UHtA8xAUDc0Wv0Az6HhR4bRZeKdtm2t4cvHDtkgm9s0X3R7s82pt4NUnCAL6C65 Nyo9WoL2TAkQeoQlPhcgwvdta3dt+ObJsdKUt/gcfiVyL7KS5HL8rOsKDvW5+nmur2rt LFIXUajaiQODF7zUfx4ieGmxujnmFs3s/oTCPcg6Qcaf1gLS0CZQnv/B2Dp+6pmNkjFa 8xFw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzQkI/2Hb++lSqeL/h20uSUzjhyzpSIELPqqR5fz7Zhgi1PoyOV zCU4kJMZ+qGNe/WwQ8kU7FMKL54Z0MCDC6E6SjUkL5sg02pVFpwvD2F9j7zRa0CWpbRmPw9y/hD 70Psn40VMs8FGdWS+AVuHU/ja0uo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEQBub+O0OZGC8k4X4C2xKkRBSBz1/A624b0nut/DNrPljDjMh27hvF9UT0fXvHlWl0X2CfP/9lpGF1E8Am8VY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:b28b:b0:270:172c:32ae with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2701c52ee79mr147093fac.32.1723741567843; Thu, 15 Aug 2024 10:06:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9F54B8F8-3B2B-4F45-A197-E6137A74F492@comcast.com> <47247967-DA81-4F5C-A471-767C4C721095@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <47247967-DA81-4F5C-A471-767C4C721095@gmx.de> From: Dave Taht Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 10:05:55 -0700 Message-ID: To: Sebastian Moeller Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= , "Livingood, Jason" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d60367061fbbdb82" Subject: Re: [NNagain] nn back in the news X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 17:06:08 -0000 --000000000000d60367061fbbdb82 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable and in other news today: https://www.theregister.com/2024/08/15/google_monopoly_fix/ I kind of wish would-be regulators to try and block google IPs and see how good their web experience is - everything from fonts to css leads back to goog. I am reminded of the bell telephone breakup where folk still didn't have touchtone... On Thu, Aug 15, 2024 at 8:58=E2=80=AFAM Sebastian Moeller = wrote: > Hi Dave, > > On 15 August 2024 16:16:52 CEST, Dave Taht via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >Perhaps it would have been better to say that "one of the sites I read > >regularly just put out an update on it." :) > > > >I like to think that bufferbloat.net's NOI filing did a bit of good, > >getting cited 16 times, but not changing the top level conclusions one > >iota. Doing another one this year is on my mind in followup, but aside > from > >harping on our latency points, > > [SM] So I believe/think that we need (or rather I need to convince my > National Regulatory Agency that mandating a OWD to a national reference > point <150ms, so an RTT <=3D 300ms) some clear study showing the effect o= f > loaded latency/jitter on some measurable variable of obvious relevance. > That is, I think we should make a scientifically backed claim that shitty > latency causes shitty productivity. We as a group IMHO intuitively seem t= o > accept that as a given (based on some evidence), but to convince regulato= rs > we need better examples then e.g. L4S' on-line switching between differen= t > live camera feeds, or showing that page completion time scales linearly > with latency... > Stuart's, remote desktop example might serve as good starting point, if w= e > can show that productivity suffers significantly as a function of latency > and jitter. I mention abstract productivity simply because I believe maki= ng > remote work more efficient would be a case in the public's interest and > hence might catch the regulator's attention. > So if anybody on this list has an idea for an experiment or better yet an > already existing paper describing such an experiment, that would be great= . > > > > pointing to progress, and the need for more > >IXPs, I don't know what top level items could be addressed, again? I'd > have > >to buckle down and re-read what resonated, and what didn't. > > > >Perhaps something might come out of the DNC? > > > >I have been enjoying Carr's negative posts on BEAD, but there must be so= me > >bright news in that program somewhere by now? > > > >I am perhaps reading too much into it, but with a potentially younger > crowd > >moving into office, perhaps more technical clue is arriving? I'm very > happy > >to see mudge make CIO at darpa. The white house got a cto yet? The FCC? > > > >PS Ms Shotwell did a great fireside chat at Mountain Connect: > >https://www.broadband.io/c/broadband-community-events/shotwell > > > > > >On Thu, Aug 15, 2024 at 6:27=E2=80=AFAM Livingood, Jason < > >jason_livingood@comcast.com> wrote: > > > >> I would say it is not =E2=80=9Cback=E2=80=9D in the news =E2=80=93 it = has continuously been in > the > >> news since the Loper Bright SCOTUS ruling that impacts =E2=80=9CChevro= n > deference=E2=80=9D > >> as well the major questions doctrine issue raised in W VA vs EPA. As > many > >> people have long said, this will be tied up in the courts for several > >> years. > >> > >> Personal take =E2=80=93 in the long-term it will be better to have leg= islation > >> that codifies this (as well as a national cross-sector privacy law). > >> > >> > >> > >> JL > >> > >> > >> > >> *From: *Nnagain on behalf of > Dave > >> Taht via Nnagain > >> *Reply-To: *Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the technical = aspects > >> heard this time! > >> *Date: *Thursday, August 15, 2024 at 07:41 > >> *To: *Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the technical aspect= s heard > >> this time! > >> *Cc: *Dave Taht > >> *Subject: *[NNagain] nn back in the news > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/08/isps-ask-supreme-court-to-kil= l-new-york-law-that-requires-15-broadband-plans/ > >> < > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/08/is= ps-ask-supreme-court-to-kill-new-york-law-that-requires-15-broadband-plans/= __;!!CQl3mcHX2A!FPiUKVoVIIjDuEAjFeVX-ISnAeSb8gI7-H-8Pg5UvZVEuC6YaYS0X8k4cHM= 4F-i7JjIAMB_2uKpV5QLmf8MbXIx1fORtlGxN$ > > > >> > >> -- > >> > >> > >> > >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > >> > > > > > > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > --=20 Artists/Musician Campout Aug 9-11 https://www.eventbrite.com/e/healing-arts-event-tickets-928910826287 Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos --000000000000d60367061fbbdb82 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
and in other news today:=C2=A0https://www.theregister.com/202= 4/08/15/google_monopoly_fix/

I kind of wish would-be= regulators to try and block google IPs and see how good their web experien= ce is - everything from fonts to css leads back to goog. I am reminded of t= he bell telephone breakup where folk still didn't have touchtone...

On Thu, Aug 15, 2024 at 8:58=E2=80=AFAM Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:
Hi Dave,

On 15 August 2024 16:16:52 CEST, Dave Taht via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloa= t.net> wrote:
>Perhaps it would have been better to say that "one of the sites I = read
>regularly just put out an update on it." :)
>
>I like to think that bufferbloat.net's NOI filing did a bit of goo= d,
>getting cited 16 times, but not changing the top level conclusions one<= br> >iota. Doing another one this year is on my mind in followup, but aside = from
>harping on our latency points,

[SM] So I believe/think that we need (or rather I need to convince my Natio= nal Regulatory Agency that mandating a OWD to a national reference point &l= t;150ms, so an RTT <=3D 300ms) some clear study showing the effect of lo= aded latency/jitter on some measurable variable of obvious relevance. That = is, I think we should make a scientifically backed claim that shitty latenc= y causes shitty productivity. We as a group IMHO intuitively seem to accept= that as a given (based on some evidence), but to convince regulators we ne= ed better examples then e.g. L4S' on-line switching between different l= ive camera feeds, or showing that page completion time scales linearly with= latency...
Stuart's, remote desktop example might serve as good starting point, if= we can show that productivity suffers significantly as a function of laten= cy and jitter. I mention abstract productivity simply because I believe mak= ing remote work more efficient would be a case in the public's interest= and hence might catch the regulator's attention.
So if anybody on this list has an idea for an experiment or better yet an a= lready existing paper describing such an experiment, that would be great.


pointing to progress, and the need for more
>IXPs, I don't know what top level items could be addressed, again? = I'd have
>to buckle down and re-read what resonated, and what didn't.
>
>Perhaps something might come out of the DNC?
>
>I have been enjoying Carr's negative posts on BEAD, but there must = be some
>bright news in that program somewhere by now?
>
>I am perhaps reading too much into it, but with a potentially younger c= rowd
>moving into office, perhaps more technical clue is arriving? I'm ve= ry happy
>to see mudge make CIO at darpa. The white house got a cto yet? The FCC?=
>
>PS=C2=A0 Ms Shotwell did a great fireside chat at Mountain Connect:
>https://www.broadband.io/c/broadba= nd-community-events/shotwell
>
>
>On Thu, Aug 15, 2024 at 6:27=E2=80=AFAM Livingood, Jason <
>jason_= livingood@comcast.com> wrote:
>
>> I would say it is not =E2=80=9Cback=E2=80=9D in the news =E2=80=93= it has continuously been in the
>> news since the Loper Bright SCOTUS ruling that impacts =E2=80=9CCh= evron deference=E2=80=9D
>> as well the major questions doctrine issue raised in W VA vs EPA. = As many
>> people have long said, this will be tied up in the courts for seve= ral
>> years.
>>
>> Personal take =E2=80=93 in the long-term it will be better to have= legislation
>> that codifies this (as well as a national cross-sector privacy law= ).
>>
>>
>>
>> JL
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Nnagain <nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> = on behalf of Dave
>> Taht via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> *Reply-To: *Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the techni= cal aspects
>> heard this time! <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> *Date: *Thursday, August 15, 2024 at 07:41
>> *To: *Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the technical as= pects heard
>> this time! <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> *Cc: *Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
>> *Subject: *[NNagain] nn back in the news
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/08/i= sps-ask-supreme-court-to-kill-new-york-law-that-requires-15-broadband-plans= /
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/arstechnica.com/= tech-policy/2024/08/isps-ask-supreme-court-to-kill-new-york-law-that-requir= es-15-broadband-plans/__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!FPiUKVoVIIjDuEAjFeVX-ISnAeSb8gI7-H-8P= g5UvZVEuC6YaYS0X8k4cHM4F-i7JjIAMB_2uKpV5QLmf8MbXIx1fORtlGxN$>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
>>
>
>

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.


--
Artists/Musician Campout Aug 9-11
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
--000000000000d60367061fbbdb82--