From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr1-x42c.google.com (mail-wr1-x42c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5041A3B29D for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2024 09:04:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42c.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-33dc3fe739aso116530f8f.0 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2024 06:04:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1708783446; x=1709388246; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=gXgKaruxue8Y2R6TSHF7HOjAzDPTbavXzBdJLu8tN0c=; b=PgpzmuVs2+AJ3kEfNqDm33oLe1S4c2DbG+BeYncTgXWO4ezK7IuHIduMCv3+BV+IaZ Ypjl7W3UanR7HdjLgPQn6HEic+bd39sTz+LScuVpgILoyeOnhctOQYfZg4l8BQaq6Wk6 7cw2DCH0V5U2fAj/iBiQkp2T3RkMIdrXKdqiEdE0QZt/Wu3C4/JClbdHjmfZNDiYpoJZ jbAUtN+VfWfzpO1kvy+nNX3onXnpHck/qxafrTuiXJIyqMPPFHETmJS0/fb/Q5X0roKu 4QP5DPS0tOsxNG0TB18LbovIDiHhrmp2KJfZNVOPQD+FLjAoQtBlsEHiiNmmtK42EI+v snmA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1708783446; x=1709388246; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=gXgKaruxue8Y2R6TSHF7HOjAzDPTbavXzBdJLu8tN0c=; b=Uo0HFg3me+eP1Z1oXarSDmmNPLxTVCoS+hC3+noJZuB6hkBWA+z/VnJEKl2xiT6qNO KuvxoYT+I64iXj2nRV4eAF7b0UdhnJSLxC1e3k2MQOQCqELD1Dy/qWC5iwsHefDz/mns XSzp0k+V9mXLNm9ck9VbWBt6qDrzae5oBm2DJb9sSYZEhLNILsOdm0grD1l1qCFA0/Kc 8eIQ6o1PvEzdAJPcpYadNMp/6vLrm147u761YP5R+cUcLZAdcV3fss2e+cuRQhKf9mxl yJ2o18MDaGPwbLA+IEDpySDYYJiC5PpOcxBy5NqK50dLc65r02S7vknUtduv/GD/DZ0m 3UpQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxvBqG+mJ6Y9dacVqKWbBVxMgjCyzPr9LvyoLTe9M5ViK+mTd0M 1Qqdz8rvAxTMw1U6La/4VB1O0rUnb4rxlAozVbYrHOmBDp5eS/v6t6kUy2x4qZmnDlNqGQeBemS jhj+docckLp4gLjfnYyDC47EHk0I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFk3I8u/mhjSQOnwn0k4bfLB4e6m5nKS6G/wZ1ZVeQshP2w4w8dzzuyx4ARBDSqP65l4ByiFsEx0YbxZmgthHI= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:5186:0:b0:33d:63b6:defd with SMTP id k6-20020a5d5186000000b0033d63b6defdmr2085527wrv.31.1708783445827; Sat, 24 Feb 2024 06:04:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2FE6AC99-172D-4948-8277-AD4316054E3D@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2024 09:03:54 -0500 Message-ID: To: Bill Woodcock Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= , Fearghas Mckay Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [NNagain] The Whys of the Wichita IXP Project X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2024 14:04:07 -0000 On Sat, Feb 24, 2024 at 8:25=E2=80=AFAM Bill Woodcock wrote= : > > > > > On Feb 24, 2024, at 14:12, Fearghas Mckay via Nnagain wrote: > > On 24 Feb 2024 at 12:27:09, Dave Taht wrote: > >> Who can fund more IXPs? The internet society has a 50k set-asied. > > The member ISPs perhaps ? Seems to work in a lot of other countries. > > Exactly. It works fine in the US, as well, as we can see from ~130 IXPs,= of which only the original four got subsidies. Isoc has 50k. Does that count as a subsidy? Isoc: https://www.internetsociety.org/funding-areas/sustainable-peering-ixp= / In my case you can safely assume I have 0 dollars in my pocket for even trying, but substantial expertise, going all the way back to the 90s. In my case I would enjoy creating and running an IXP in my spare time and in my dotage, to keep my hand in, but there are some needed upfront expenses to handle. I care a lot about building sustainable infrastructure in general... and have zero contacts in tech in Florida. > Money is never the problem for startup IXPs. It=E2=80=99s always locatio= n and governance. Thank you for your expertise as to what it takes to start an IXP. As a thought experiment... (I am presently stuck in fort myers, florida, for the duration of my mom=C2=B4s illnesses. I might end up being here for a few years, and am casting about for something I can do that would be more useful and profitable than ranting on mailing lists, or open source software development, or fixing bufferbloat) Ft Myers was devastated by hurricane Ian, and multiple outlying islands like Sanibell, wiped clean. I do not presently have any insight into how the rebuilding process is going (the harbor next to me is still sadly filled with sunken boats and in bankruptcy), but I imagine there is a lot of new fiber being dropped around here. Connected Nation identifies Fort Myers as an ideal location for an IXP. Some traceroutes show traffic being backhauled to Naples (about 40 miles away). There is a huge infrastructure of hospital buildings, rich folk, and so on that makes much of the area seemingly ideal for fiber, but comcast has a lock on most of it (and the aging populace is still quite fond of broadcast tv). The internet in my building is not all that good, but various quotes for putting fiber in here have all stalled out. (and most residents just watch tv). MANY new buildings are under construction however.... I am very pleased to see that the nearest hospital is connected up via IPv6, but it takes 28ms to get there, when I can see it about a mile outside my window. So I figure step 1, in starting an IXP, is talk to the ISPs in the area, and also the local government and potential anchors like hospitals and schools? ... traceroute6 leehealth.org traceroute to leehealth.org (2606:4700::6812:1134), 30 hops max, 80 byte pa= ckets 1 2601:6c0:c102:a770:1485:1eff:feaa:4547 (2601:6c0:c102:a770:1485:1eff:feaa:4547) 0.090 ms 0.009 ms 0.007 ms 2 2601:6c0:c102:a770:35c0:ee0:c4f7:fd84 (2601:6c0:c102:a770:35c0:ee0:c4f7:fd84) 0.810 ms 0.759 ms 0.737 ms 3 2601:6c0:c102:a770:4af7:c0ff:fee3:7452 (2601:6c0:c102:a770:4af7:c0ff:fee3:7452) 3.342 ms 4.552 ms 6.012 ms 4 2001:558:4012:8::1 (2001:558:4012:8::1) 27.545 ms 30.448 ms 30.436 m= s 5 po-302-1209-rur01.beaudr.fl.naples.comcast.net (2001:558:252:6029::1) 28.228 ms 28.558 ms 30.375 ms 6 ae-28-ar03.bonitasprngs.fl.naples.comcast.net (2001:558:250:124::1) 43.536 ms 30.311 ms 30.599 ms 7 be-33923-cs02.miami.fl.ibone.comcast.net (2001:558:3:355::1) 44.881 ms be-33943-cs04.miami.fl.ibone.comcast.net (2001:558:3:357::1) 42.755 ms be-33933-cs03.miami.fl.ibone.comcast.net (2001:558:3:356::1) 43.370 ms 8 be-3212-pe12.nota.fl.ibone.comcast.net (2001:558:3:69::2) 42.899 ms be-3411-pe11.nota.fl.ibone.comcast.net (2001:558:3:67::2) 42.651 ms be-3312-pe12.nota.fl.ibone.comcast.net (2001:558:3:6a::2) 41.372 ms 9 2001:559::902 (2001:559::902) 55.573 ms 2001:559::462 (2001:559::462) 28.796 ms 2001:559::902 (2001:559::902) 75.450 ms 10 2400:cb00:368:3:: (2400:cb00:368:3::) 30.076 ms 2400:cb00:369:3:: (2400:cb00:369:3::) 39.196 ms 2400:cb00:368:3:: (2400:cb00:368:3::) 26.319 ms 11 2400:cb00:363:1024::ac46:35da (2400:cb00:363:1024::ac46:35da) 27.691 ms 2400:cb00:368:1024::ac46:5183 (2400:cb00:368:1024::ac46:5183) 28.746 ms 2400:cb00:363:1024::ac46:3508 (2400:cb00:363:1024::ac46:3508) 28.130 ms dtaht@tank:~$ traceroute 9.9.9.9 traceroute to 9.9.9.9 (9.9.9.9), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets 1 _gateway.lxd (100.115.92.193) 0.122 ms 0.008 ms 0.005 ms 2 100.115.92.25 (100.115.92.25) 0.414 ms 0.390 ms 0.379 ms 3 10.0.0.1 (10.0.0.1) 5.898 ms 6.690 ms 7.679 ms 4 96.120.50.49 (96.120.50.49) 22.690 ms 23.041 ms 24.509 ms 5 po-302-1210-rur02.beaudr.fl.naples.comcast.net (68.85.96.17) 23.695 ms 24.885 ms 24.876 ms 6 po-2-rur01.beaudr.fl.naples.comcast.net (68.85.59.5) 28.215 ms 27.568 ms 26.779 ms 7 ae-28-ar03.bonitasprngs.fl.naples.comcast.net (68.85.59.41) 31.193 ms 15.073 ms 22.149 ms 8 be-33923-cs02.miami.fl.ibone.comcast.net (96.110.45.85) 23.417 ms be-33943-cs04.miami.fl.ibone.comcast.net (96.110.45.93) 20.343 ms be-33923-cs02.miami.fl.ibone.comcast.net (96.110.45.85) 23.917 ms 9 be-3401-pe01.nota.fl.ibone.comcast.net (96.110.36.94) 24.600 ms be-3101-pe01.nota.fl.ibone.comcast.net (96.110.36.82) 24.900 ms be-3201-pe01.nota.fl.ibone.comcast.net (96.110.36.86) 25.352 ms 10 50.248.117.138 (50.248.117.138) 28.871 ms 29.407 ms 30.029 ms 11 dns9.quad9.net (9.9.9.9) 27.987 ms !X 27.817 ms !X 32.385 ms !X > > -Bill > --=20 https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/2024_predictions/ Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos