From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pg1-x52d.google.com (mail-pg1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3A493CB37; Fri, 10 Nov 2023 07:55:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-pg1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-517ab9a4a13so1578301a12.1; Fri, 10 Nov 2023 04:55:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1699620934; x=1700225734; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=OWzRyt3OGtKDULhG8lieErAWZOQC7vO9NcxqvY5eIvI=; b=IOKSqoazIk3OJw/HlQVuVQ+1t9b8J1I3/z/d34vtxkBoEXuf07ihM8LpyptwHS6diY U51/WXh/2pAqvMpCeWmiAXXME1+/5VGEYiRdHa6JcBTgb/0jn5fRhCMO43d6e3U/Pw1i cfmvcUb+z4p8ESFS3qiNHMUQ6n9Zalxica3yNfgeuDPIIwl7XUA6UZXvzCOvHo6gXq6r 5QsDrPD8JDXGPuzkfvobIw88axLTMcfT5gokJd41hvhHdULeGuXV29wzYMQXnFABuati 8Oib0qrjshlU8IwwNqwr2EB2akFEpveHsZ+1SzTWn3IPl6ds8ycAHyXqksX/jTGA7N0U WsSg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1699620934; x=1700225734; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=OWzRyt3OGtKDULhG8lieErAWZOQC7vO9NcxqvY5eIvI=; b=gbAMVEeqJCzq6K8mPSTIhMhtMO7+nBerRQ3ttY0yERiLzM4TpBcidxyNGQiIW/zr83 361xYHNxbfbPHbwTwdw8hYRGEnT2Y7J0ifH6fEKkzQVnZn8whWl/C3IZsuaySR0CBQ7d 39H2gCduqoI+gxd7M5RiKU6z/t/1tNZyIaJauvaXl2jU2rUij4W/xFbx5Kg38aCDnuzu CcF36YO8SsqEw2WzsGWTByjWHtkqhPnRrwIEzswKmXKrQBw33fS9WOTNdnuj+Lj8J15U Bz4iwXMSb1ORRkQeT+67RyE0mZsNH6UmQ4i46DzsQOQU42ZlM/NLqMogkBLjFQxy2j/q GV+A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx5KM5KQK/AD7TD+JxvBR+6nIVMrNZjzdrH/WQsL7LYqoOZeD8y m1eeynKYmIPxoSkV0rTk4BJb5uDsXt/ioVQkZqXt4CPOaKE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHhmuhMxLguX21nWSe/Oq+J2nTzVmMtfF0L4vi+NdUcpWSRDlfRK9lQc+7gmAfMrncZOzXS7QmiUgrsm2erA10= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a20:da93:b0:13c:ca8b:7e29 with SMTP id iy19-20020a056a20da9300b0013cca8b7e29mr9950326pzb.12.1699620934539; Fri, 10 Nov 2023 04:55:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <13641F2C-B933-49AF-8289-7B8917667AAE@pch.net> In-Reply-To: <13641F2C-B933-49AF-8289-7B8917667AAE@pch.net> From: Dave Taht Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2023 07:55:21 -0500 Message-ID: To: Bill Woodcock Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= , Dave Taht via Starlink Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [NNagain] one dish per household is silly. X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2023 12:55:35 -0000 On Fri, Nov 10, 2023 at 7:33=E2=80=AFAM Bill Woodcock wrote= : > > > On Nov 10, 2023, at 12:44, Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote: > > Steve song's analysis here: > > https://manypossibilities.net/2023/11/starlink-and-inequality/ > > He makes some good points. > > > A) Am I the only person left in the world that shares his wifi? > > My neighbors and I do. The history of internet expansion beyond the edge is always of someone getting a good connection and either sharing it or attempting to resell it. It makes for visions of capturing every home with FTTH or billing per user dubious. > > > A single dishy can easily serve dozens of people > > But that=E2=80=99s a different question than whether Starlink=E2=80=99s c= ontract _allows_ you to share it. The contract does not. It appears to. > > So I think saying that it=E2=80=99s a good thing because it=E2=80=99s goo= d when you don=E2=80=99t follow the rules is=E2=80=A6 well, perhaps a littl= e too much of a stretch for a general argument. As near as I can tell from the terms of service: https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1020-91087-64 There is no prohibition against sharing. The closest that document comes to it is: "The Standard Service Plan is designed for personal, family, or household use." resale is prohibited. > > I know of refuge centers in the ukraine serving hundreds of people as o= ne example. > > And if Musk weren=E2=80=99t cutting Starlink connectivity for Ukrainian d= efensive uses, those refugee centers wouldn=E2=80=99t have so many people i= n them. And, more to the point, Ukrainian graveyards wouldn=E2=80=99t have= so many people in them. > Remarkably, the terms of service do include this: "However, Starlink is not designed or intended for use with or in offensive or defensive weaponry or other comparable end-uses. Custom modifications of the Starlink Kits or Services for military end-uses or military end-users may transform the items into products controlled under U.S. export control laws, specifically the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) (22 C.F.R. =C2=A7=C2=A7 120-130) or the Export Administration Regulations (EAR) (15 C.F.R. =C2=A7=C2=A7 730-774) requiring authorizations from the United States government for the export, support, or use outside the United States. Starlink aftersales support to customers is limited exclusively to standard commercial service support. At its sole discretion, Starlink may refuse to provide technical support to any modified Starlink products and is grounds for termination of this Agreement." --=20 Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.htm= l Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos