From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x336.google.com (mail-wm1-x336.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::336]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 745FC3B29D for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2024 08:32:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-wm1-x336.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-412cc617b68so940445e9.0 for ; Fri, 01 Mar 2024 05:32:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1709299938; x=1709904738; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=YrjjbzgpKfxYcayXRJOUfIT8vb6vVbpRcofK2isNbbI=; b=Gv/Wn1XFg3FT7Kgy4kHQFW7NzECYi9vM9nkUMEzokSrZeMRFc7fUQZOh4iGdV2PyjC OYZSKpuuqjvYqfxrDwGUdcZIDklWRC87MVJWugug22hhLW5R/V4HGLbo8AlFYKECGKNS VSWgi7N8EIxTyc/ix0X9axTSeDtBcAwkf573dgUnU107Sr0LjjMfNFpOpRd4Gdu4GOdd BG4ebePFy1vM8Pb4P2YUTYYw9FBvXaqDP2yRhefMZEbFovFnQ2UH3jCHaN7YfrhrRG+k dS01L+t/7YPWwBTclpf7ilX0AuWOjCyYGB8TInCY1RafEbOZba+3f62k9Cr3cK+u/4o/ BiBw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1709299938; x=1709904738; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=YrjjbzgpKfxYcayXRJOUfIT8vb6vVbpRcofK2isNbbI=; b=TXxsM9wmkM1tlsOQqhurPCvIcmWYjxmZmqa1CpZT2MsTAt3ttyDYDyhTZD4rg4leQO rzYoTTbYViofmwEJzUJEcmjjzEk568o6nhjwvkTsyE9JuiwRpsrxbKokg1MafYAXMVTG 248B2c18Z5WeeXHOq8kwa2MpHpK3x2HBWYeXL0qgb+joncbCsj72tqsHnjCN/lpIEyhi PQ0m0/o8pedDs3X5RjlscStk0e4BmixQgWheobpb18ZzldCTuT93O0dX9nwBwzM6CXr+ 1Sy2bxavmOw5ZtytA6PG2mzcbMahH113bUaPG8tn+A0idPVl8OqOtOV16s5VRRX0i7sg lqhw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxTvMH9tfZtuvEBLl0plf6G3bli9CKGWMKEqncVxpQCUbxBuT4+ QfcB4S8BEClahPIGP93H28/6wY9yyXwaP0vHXoBEtCZW7qQVgexgYjXDFMWNvGQJhMVJVLxrOrB oYCkHM9g3sAPqkigayelVDyJi3fYpfytK X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHAflaT3QIyZJqokoJVrm91TeKpnBE8FsP+Aobt19IxWRkfimk/SxRkhRQS9kfJKCaJQWmFMuDClPk3sjJhx/c= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:198c:b0:412:c7d9:bd96 with SMTP id t12-20020a05600c198c00b00412c7d9bd96mr1585106wmq.8.1709299937860; Fri, 01 Mar 2024 05:32:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <13f504f19eb2d57e63d13e843606d2ad@rjmcmahon.com> In-Reply-To: <13f504f19eb2d57e63d13e843606d2ad@rjmcmahon.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2024 08:32:06 -0500 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [NNagain] Towards a speed of light internet X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2024 13:32:19 -0000 This paper was written in 2014. How far have we come? https://arxiv.org/pdf/1505.03449.pdf On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 11:02=E2=80=AFPM rjmcmahon via Nnagain wrote: > > Van Jacobson had a talk about content networking in 2012. His > perspective is from a network view. > > https://youtu.be/Bc-4PJPxfVQ?feature=3Dshared > > TV affiliates could have inserted their own ads but nationals (ABC, CBS > and NBC) had the copyright to the content. It wasn't technology that > stopped the affiliates but what came to be known as broadcast rights. > And lots of case law. The biggest "affiliates" with access to content > where in NYC, hence that's why they're there. > > A digression: It is interesting that Comcast is in Philly, though > Comcast bought 30 Rock in NYC. The same Rockefeller that was the richest > man to ever walk the planet. Ralph Roberts and Comcast origins came > through Tulepo, Mississippi. Never bet against those who make things > work for poorer communities. They most always win in the long run. > Colleges that have an origin story of a YMCA sign (vs a $305M data > center landmark building are ones not to bet against either. Boston > really should lead the world in real broadband, which includes FiWi, by > my judgment.) > > Today majors with mail, social networks, etc. have basically skirted > copyrights in the transition from broadcast to unicast. And are doing > the same with so-called generative AI. Of course, they and the end > device mfgs are going to use encryption to control the content. Less > case law required. > > The whole theory presented by Geoff of going back to a TV model is only > true if we accept that we can't pay for digital things, rather it has to > be paid from trillion dollar+ ad budgets. More Cheez Whiz so-to-speak > but targeted. I like blue fake cheez so I'll get that. > > The idea that ten CDNs are going to dominate is a bit silly to me. > Setting up servers is easier and easier. It's also why companies like > Cloudflare are giving away QUIC stacks so they can be the CDN point that > decrypts. I'm skeptical that the digital world is going to stop at > HTTP3/QUIC. TCP seems good to me for many things, like new apps that > don't need a CDN encrypt-er for ad delivery. Today's technology may not > map to next week, particularly if it's all software. > > My take is that the innovation in sw & devices has been basically > stalled since the mobile phone become the common person's computer and > Steve Jobs passed. People are being trained on substandard devices and > substandard mobile networks that, yes, are basically provided by the > RBOCs who renamed themselves. The richest technologists tend to focus on > data centers and don't want to make products for the common person. Just > another epitaph per Thomas Gray and his Churchyard elegy. > > I think we are in a state of what's old is new again. Not all that > innovative (though does make for trips to Thailand and talks about > elephants I guess.) I don't think we have to repeat history all the > time. Though behaviors like wars over religious beliefs does suggest the > human condition struggles to overcome historical cultural values, which > much of the time should be abandoned. > > We get to choose our epitaphs, not so much in words, but more so in our > actions. I hope for our kids sake we each and all choose well. Pay a > woman an honest pay for her work and don't ask advertisers to respect > privacy and pay for things at the same time. Choosy mothers choose Jif > no more. > > Bob > > Get rid of the advertisers as the source of funds and everything > > changes. This projection was obvious from how radio and television > > rolled out in their days, being driven by Kraft TV and those soap > > operas. The show was built for the ad, not the other way around. It's > > also not a technology thing but a content creator's getting paid > > thing, again all so an ad can be delivered. The dearth in high quality > > content is that people will have to pay. We may never pay but that's > > on us and our free rider thinking vs on technology or comm infra. We > > said goodbye to journalists as Yahoo did in 2000 when asked if they > > would ever pay one for the news articles they were "stealing" and the > > young execs said, "No. I don't see why I would have to." > > > > Our communications networks have to move beyond entertainment and > > social affirmations. They have to become life support capable. This > > includes in home WiFi networks. Just as every power receptacle in a > > house isn't for a TV, a network comm channel, port or whatever it's > > called, is not only for a humans directly either, at least not per our > > very limited 5 sensory system and our error prone brains. > > > > Machines and senors are going to be a major sea change but it's hard > > work to get there, particularly when building off a last mile > > infrastructure built for HBO and NFL. > > > > Or legacy isn't about advertising from the broadcast networks or about > > some of the worst computers possible, something now called a smart > > phone, which isn't true. It's not about AI, VR, AR etc either. It's > > about communications as fundamental infrastructure and everything that > > entails which goes way beyond ip addresses and CDNs. Fields like > > linguistics come to mind. > > > > Predicting the future from the past is easy. Making a different future > > other than the past is hard. What's old is new again until somebody > > decides to actually innovate. > > > > Just my $0.02, > > Bob > >> On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 12:26=E2=80=AFPM Lee via Nnagain > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 9:12=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote: > >>> > > >>> > He is being incredibly provocative this week. It hurt to sit throug= h this. > >>> > > >>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DgxO73fH0VqM > >>> > >>> Yes, he's provocative - but also entertaining. And don't forget the > >>> audience: > >> > >> > >>> ABOUT APRICOT > >>> > >>> Representing Asia Pacific's largest international Internet > >>> conference, > >>> Asia Pacific Regional Internet Conference on Operational Technologies > >>> (APRICOT) draws many of the world's best Internet engineers, > >>> operators, researchers, service providers, users and policy > >>> communities from over 50 countries to teach, present, and do their > >>> own > >>> human networking. > >>> > >>> His last slide deck seemed to be a call to arms. He's near the end > >>> of > >>> his career, so for all the Internet engineers, etc. I saw it as a > >>> "here's where we're going. Do you want to contribute to this trend > >>> or > >>> take the Internet in a different direction?" > >> > >> I perceive the internet as a communications network, not just as a > >> content one. Chat, email, and other bidirectional communications > >> are the most useful parts of it, and cannot be cached. > >> > >>> > >>> For example, after talking about CDNs and how most content is now > >>> local he brings up the bit about if 10% of your traffic costs you 90% > >>> of your carriage costs, if I was a rational provider, I would say to > >>> all those customers who need that 10% of the traffic go find someone > >>> else. I'm not going to do it. Don't forget, this is a deregulated > >>> world - you can do that. There is no universal obligation to carry > >>> default. > >> > >> So the audience was in the cheap seats in the back like me, were > >> silently grinding their teeth? > >> > >>> Does network neutrality require an ISP to connect you to the Internet > >>> at large? Or do they get to drop the "expensive" traffic that > >>> requires connecting to a transit provider (or however they do it now > >>> to connect to the global Internet). > >>> > >>> I was a bit dubious about the assertion that most traffic stays > >>> within > >>> the AS but surprise, surprise, surprise (most people here are old > >>> enough to remember Gomer Pyle.. right?).. youtube content is in the > >>> Verizon network. Start wireshark, get the IP address of the youtube > >>> server and > >>> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:803:f00::e > >>> traceroute to 2600:803:f00::e (2600:803:f00::e), 30 hops max, 72 byte > >>> packets > >>> <.. snip ..> > >>> 3 2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701] 33.323 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324 > >>> [AS701] 2.542 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701] 33.315 ms > >>> 4 * * * > >>> 5 2600:803:6af::6 [AS701] 3.843 ms 3.838 ms 3.834 ms > >>> 6 2600:803:f00::e [AS701] 2.911 ms 2.216 ms 2.472 ms > >>> > >>> Do the same for Netflix and I get three [??] different ASs: > >>> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 > >>> traceroute to 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 > >>> (2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617), 30 hops max, 72 byte > >>> packets > >>> <.. snip ..> > >>> 5 2600:803:9af::82 [AS701] 8.048 ms 2600:803:9af::5a [AS701] > >>> 8.297 > >>> ms 2600:803:2::5a [AS701] 8.294 ms > >>> 6 * 2620:107:4000:c5c0::f3fd:f [*] 2.846 ms > >>> 2620:107:4000:c5c1::f3fd:20 [*] 2.810 ms > >>> 7 2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d5b1 [*] 8.148 ms > >>> 2620:107:4000:cfff::f203:54b1 [*] 5.289 ms > >>> 2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d4b1 [*] 4.300 ms > >>> 8 2620:107:4000:a793::f000:3863 [*] 4.865 ms > >>> 2620:107:4000:a610::f000:2403 [*] 5.245 ms > >>> 2620:107:4000:acd3::f000:e060 [*] 5.201 ms > >>> 9 * * * > >>> 10 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509] 4.881 > >>> ms 4.864 ms 4.848 ms > >>> 11 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509] 6.351 > >>> ms 6.075 ms 5.935 ms > >>> > >>> Does it violate network neutrality that youtube content takes the > >>> "fast lane" getting to me? > >>> > >>> and just for chuckles.. > >>> $ dig 2024.apricot.net aaaa +short > >>> 2001:dd8:f::1 > >> > >> Anycast technology can certainly be applied to more parts of the > >> internet than it is today. > >> > >> QUIC tho, seems to enable the idea that all of google could run off of > >> 8.8.8.9, all of cloudflare, 1.1.1.9, etc. > >> > >>> > >>> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2001:dd8:f::1 > >>> traceroute to 2001:dd8:f::1 (2001:dd8:f::1), 30 hops max, 72 byte > >>> packets > >>> <.. snip ..> > >>> 3 2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701] 27.390 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326 > >>> [AS701] 5.711 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701] 27.384 ms > >>> 4 * * * > >>> 5 * * 2001:2035:0:bb3::1 [AS1299] 7.235 ms > >>> 6 2001:2034:1:73::1 [AS1299] 7.763 ms 6.033 ms 5.996 ms > >>> 7 2001:2034:1:b7::1 [AS1299] 11.530 ms 2001:2034:1:b8::1 [AS1299] > >>> 10.704 ms * > >>> 8 * * * > >>> 9 2001:2000:3080:230d::2 [AS1299] 72.609 ms 72.594 ms 73.096 ms > >>> 10 * * * > >>> 11 * * * > >>> 12 * * * > >>> 13 * 2402:7800:10::2 [AS4826] 289.033 ms * > >>> 14 2402:7800:10:1::12 [AS4826] 290.608 ms 292.440 ms 290.840 ms > >>> 15 2402:7800:10:8::16 [AS4826] 228.836 ms 229.406 ms 231.379 ms > >>> 16 2001:dd8:8:38::2 [AS4608] 233.803 ms 231.332 ms 233.572 ms > >>> 17 2001:dd8:f::1 [AS4608] 231.822 ms 231.137 ms 232.772 ms > >>> > >>> Oh my.. I'm betting that's a lot more than 100 miles away :) > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Lee > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Nnagain mailing list > >>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > _______________________________________________ > > Nnagain mailing list > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain --=20 https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/2024_predictions/ Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos