From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pf1-x42d.google.com (mail-pf1-x42d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B64FA3B29D for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 19:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-6bee11456baso2485364b3a.1 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 16:45:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698450317; x=1699055117; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=2wEBtPYNJcBYPzfVudvmMAdlhpOofN4aNrcFHO32b+U=; b=GSupK22apvMOnpXaXKJyyAeMzmECevCxPAg5C8aX06ciO5T3ADmdPjiMZrcWG82cV8 ksScp9XCSJO0EMz+QNtcEZ+Wj3kWiM5/yoJLuFhYouI9Yp61QtCtuV+TPVHSnRcLdoRx ZsOKEM0yJ+y79Nf5IcP+Y2t/3nLNNh51kzEm+e7Nz1kRmryAMrzf2hIQrNMOXJqhJmy6 i6QXATTlwes0O14Vunyefuap1wg2ZSkCr942bkCD7GN3N2EihR+o/5sqHxHExXQpkCoZ Wt2Sd/SWdvNNvJdWKnEqNS0EjBhT1dAmUbvTOtYCRIlkFwRov4b6nrobYtQicdzOPHtD RBeQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698450317; x=1699055117; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=2wEBtPYNJcBYPzfVudvmMAdlhpOofN4aNrcFHO32b+U=; b=u2/MDMOs0r+HhbMoNHyPmQtN20JKv2ExPgG4x9DnfpPTw9EX9dAcotstN2/v7SZHXY Xpy2dckAUD3Yqgwqc2uxSXacndi7ZKCZ8FXrveAqsotZNJtELswOKu0cFL9MEh0fwJhD 7OWG+0XkW5FogNkTVXE853a+9Dm8hOyTahRJevyPq7Q8YA5hs9k3HgZCGMkerB8aT8/Z T8LhLVAoafaOi3I9/VtDxB8K95+EN5n/79v9bIo6KDmJIBvvmAs5zU5LHSIejWGtznX4 vh1eFUmbgKn06BcAq/6juwMuCggYV9DqdcH+wgsx2xXhLtKVroa0hIB1X6Y7NGmmLVdS cZrA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxJs+IjgEeMWuXiw03HdSmij0pT7dr9EBi7ZERTjVlkamMh21GA xq/Qjwa+ZKmCbsIKTTfu1VmR8nlLg3tv1dbJpgfL4/xBm18= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEIY1NLjaURnvIPH2GK2FuO9ckWtkK2tHuDosL4VJ4id4Ed6h7va74rDQRWv1HO1mt+Xsjyc/3xeimZ1d5bj8g= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a20:6a05:b0:17a:fcda:4a6b with SMTP id p5-20020a056a206a0500b0017afcda4a6bmr4983169pzk.13.1698450317215; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 16:45:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20231027214840.7A4FA28C20C@107-137-68-211.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 16:45:04 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [NNagain] Spam filtering X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 23:45:18 -0000 On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 4:23=E2=80=AFPM Nathan Simington via Nnagain wrote: > > This has gone from mere cost-shifting to protocol takeover. Self-hosting = is essentially dead because you are guaranteed to get filtered by Outlook a= nd Gmail, which means that there is de facto embrace-and-extend -- "best vi= ewed in Internet Explorer at 800x600" but for a core standard. This is one of those things that could be reversed if there was law guaranteeing freedom of communications. That really does not seem to be the way the world is going, however. See: https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/ for example. I like email (and netnews). You had a copy, the recipients had copies, and pretty much anyone that had the capability of snooping in-between had copies. Nobody ever got arround to making starttls mandatory. Compare this to all the even more centralized, but incompatible chat systems since, multiple ones that have vanished from the web (g+), and others that are barely hanging on, like disquis. Even with the flight to mastodon and other heavily encrypted home server technologies, email remains the most common, useful and malleable public identifier for connecting people to people. I would like to make it better, for everyone, again. > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 5:48=E2=80=AFPM Hal Murray via Nnagain wrote: >> >> [Was Amtrack] >> >> >> > 2) I could get mad that I figure 80% of this new email list is vanishi= ng into >> > spam boxes. >> >> >> > What of the 10s of thousands of other emails that have come over the y= ears >> > not just from lists.bufferbloat.net but from people trying honestly to >> > communicate? >> >> There is/was a good discussion of all the good things that network geeks= have >> done. >> >> How about discussing the things they haven't done? >> >> Spam would be pretty high on my list. It's tangled up with (in)security= -- a >> lot comes from infected systems or phished accounts. >> >> The current approach to spam is cost shifting. If you don't pay for you= r >> abuse desk, the crap that you send or phishing sites you host..., means = that >> the rest of the net has to spend more on defense. >> >> Anybody remember Spamford Wallace? He was going to setup a spam friendl= y ISP. >> Nobody would connect to him. I wonder what would happen if a few ISPs = that >> host a lot of abuse had more troubles getting connected to the net. Wo= uld a >> few well publicized examples be enough to spread the word? >> >> >> >> High on my list would be dis/mis-information. The business model seems = to be >> to show customers things that will keep them online so you can show them= more >> ads. Gues what does that? >> >> Is this also cost shifting? It's society as a whole that has to pay for= the >> disruption caused by bogus information. >> >> >> -- >> These are my opinions. I hate spam. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > > > -- > Nathan Simington > cell: 305-793-6899 > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain --=20 Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.htm= l Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos