From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pj1-x1030.google.com (mail-pj1-x1030.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1030]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46C213B2A4 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1030.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-27d3c886671so3121598a91.3 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 11:11:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698084682; x=1698689482; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=VrQ5Ikz//lzCx/btxznHvZukxYsjI+9ivj4RWn2ea6Y=; b=GM8gpas1ORwApp+ykiXl1onhhq0zAOb938cc2zUferNz9GHaydIOTWg8q1BNq+sW57 hUUr42VvgEbSIZiXR8AWIoPt+LW2iBoVzZDX7/5fZySE5Oq+UytTaz58uSyIV7BzYMnU 73o2mxMzp3YWp7vp07bn4kMa2cQEWHPSEYzrVCu4iFBCDQBavTQfQfiVIy8VyUcPsGEm KLMz6TvOOgMmgAiONlrbz3JDEVjmKlIA1pakZkedd2DBsuo8cDDqoYLoaUp6s5ggDOSI O1sfZ5w0xmIqMjSP23wHr5c2CD1QpkuKhaYWq/tmxpbuWGA+jnUnMH/zTlMwkcl/21Y1 YIVg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698084682; x=1698689482; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=VrQ5Ikz//lzCx/btxznHvZukxYsjI+9ivj4RWn2ea6Y=; b=u3+ljuySuZ7YXDa61KYFPonX/TJxmDHpe/hBslMvXUVhAaCjhSs2O/eMErlbPY3htl /xcgC/ZBvVRWh9zARJsn977rFn6Uj9RBumlgJk31net3oGeLtcVj7KYlm8QdhcVxfH6a C0McFC0ZnP6k0LO5c7af4VAKArpi+LS7lEflvMel7kLKy4FUDcST9Izfi8C3POUsp8/v ODetQs88Iyk1YlGX5nCStiZe9CvZh+ykSEkz8BmaldOYN2mL72bhZRyaaW8tG0dqItJa MObRXNqZO8K4uvUbr7lZAfsFvDJoxilQgkT+cbbWuLGVr8OX2xpFrOryY6bGRU/pAbQk L7cw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyDWoGgYPZhq91KNkWkI/CxfQM4CvH8cOWmwZRwCHQkTemjMU3s 1Yte268m7eFfUqXdHswBx9CUFPAyKBC6Dke5ljinMO5a+Xo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGkCMP4Qp37HKR3VXP2GMhwEdfUT/0qg6RhX96K02RVOL3f1lbZnrDoBFC3hhnbYgUnAfCUEJARMg0myRsM0zk= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:fe98:b0:27d:8ad:c4e1 with SMTP id co24-20020a17090afe9800b0027d08adc4e1mr8948548pjb.19.1698084681717; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 11:11:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 11:11:02 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Cc: thejoff@mail.com, Frantisek Borsik Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [NNagain] upgrading old routers to modern, secure FOSS X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 18:11:23 -0000 On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 10:47=E2=80=AFAM Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain wrote: > > Such a great thing to read! Another LibreQoS man aboard. Well, here is me trying to counter the now-too-popular idea that you can shape everything at the middlebox at the ISP. It is a good start to do that! The packet shaping *and* observability REALLY helps! But in the end everything always works better if you have competent fq + rfc7567 support at every possible bottleneck link, especially on variable rate wireless transports, and especially in the face of potentially difficult traffic like bittorrent, nat awareness and per host/per flow fq have to happen at the customer site.... Correct backpressure at the right point, further modified by smart algorithms is 20x less cpu intensive than shaping. The thing that bugs me most is I see people trying to shape wifi to a fixed rate, which works if you only test one device at "the right distance", and never otherwise. A lot of wifi manufactures like eero and google wifi got this, but so far my testing of wifi6 was so miserable I decided to stop working on it. I REALLY hope someone at the wifi conference this week can show test results with multiple stations at multiple distances doing the right things, as we did at gfiber here, back in *2014*, see page 13: http://flent-newark.bufferbloat.net/~d/Airtime%20based%20queue%20limit%20fo= r%20FQ_CoDel%20in%20wireless%20interface.pdf Because wifi6 and 7 are otherwise a huge step backwards. > Btw, Ignacio might be here, but cc'ing him anyway. i loved so much that *starting from scratch* he was able to assemble a good solution out of OpenWrt. It restores my faith in the engineering world, to know many folk younger than me still have basic C and makefile skills. Thx, man! I have been doing embedded linux software since 1998, and am often a bit grouchy about "the kids today" being unable to compile a kernel, write a bit of xml for the dts stuff, and boom, have a totally custom machine that does exactly what is needed. I see many wifi manufacturers completely unable to build or modify or modify the ancient crap they get from the chip manufacturer, including the chip manufacturer! Training AIs or engaging in social media are far more popular and highly paid skills nowadays. > > All the best, > > Frank > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > > > On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 7:44=E2=80=AFPM le berger des photons via Nnagain= wrote: >> >> you've convinced me to go see libre qos. thanks. >> >> On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 7:04=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote: >>> >>> I loved that this guy and his ISP burned a couple weeks learning how >>> to build openwrt, built something exactly to the need, *had it work >>> the first time* and are in progress to update in place 200+ routers to >>> better router software, that just works, with videoconferencing, IPv6 >>> support, and OTA functionality. No need for a truck roll, and while >>> the available bandwidth deep in these mountains in Mexico is meager, >>> it is now enough for most purposes. >>> >>> https://blog.nafiux.com/posts/cnpilot_r190w_openwrt_bufferbloat_fqcodel= _cake/ >>> >>> I have no idea how many of this model routers were sold or are still >>> deployed (?), but the modest up front cost of this sort of development >>> dwarves that of deployment. Ongoing maintenance is a problem, but at >>> least they are in a position now to rapidly respond to CVEs and other >>> problems when they happen, having "seized control of the methods of >>> computation" again. >>> >>> OpenWrt is known to run on 1700 different models, already, (with easy >>> ports to obscure ones like this box) - going back over a decade in >>> some cases. >>> >>> Another favorite story of mine was the ISP in New Zealand that >>> deployed LibreQos and had all their support calls (from gamers and >>> videoconferencers) cease overnight. The support tech, formerly drowned >>> in angst from the users, set to work automating an reflashing 600 old >>> agw routers they had "retired" on the shelf, and then distributing >>> them to customers as extenders because the wifi finally worked right >>> with the fq_codel stuff now in that release. >>> >>> I feel like I am tooting my own horn here a bit too much, but solving >>> the right problems like MTTR, MTBF, bufferbloat, and taking back >>> control of your software infrastructure while being able to customize >>> it for purpose, and turning what otherwise would be ewaste into >>> something that will last a decade more, is my inner "green", my inner >>> stewart brand. >>> >>> Compare that to so many others being marketed to, to death, that buy >>> the latest (and often inferior) thing, every few months, perpetually >>> fooled by promises that do not pay off in the field, and often, really >>> lousy MTBF. Good embedded software takes many years to develop, say, >>> oh, 7, while the hardware cycle is closer to 2, nowadays, and requires >>> many eyeballs to fully debug and get to lots of 9s of reliability. >>> >>> Back when I was even more radical about good, open, embedded, software >>> than now, I used to say: "Friends don't let friends run factory >>> firmware.". I do wish somehow the long term maintence costs of >>> hardware with a decade plus service lifetime would be adaquately >>> covered. Insurance? by law? a formal setaside from the purchase price? >>> Otherwise we run the risk of turning the world's internet into a giant >>> toxic waste dump that will require Superfund levels of cleanup, one >>> day, and ever more contributions to trillions of dollars of fraud, and >>> persistent actors having first broken down the front door, perpetually >>> on the inside, wreaking more havoc. Somehow preventing that mess, up >>> front, seems cheaper. >>> >>> Take this string of vulns: >>> https://www.google.com/search?q=3Dcisco+router+vulnerability >>> >>> (try that search string with *any* manufacturer - juniper, netgear, tpl= ink, >>> >>> There is a new vuln going around about some very old software in a >>> cisco mx series which is ancient and yet 100k+ are vulnerable - (I >>> worked on this while at montavista in the early 00s!) - abandonware, >>> toxic waste... >>> >>> Anyway, in Mexico at least, 200+ routers are going to be a lot better, >>> through the actions of all that contribute to linux, openwrt, and one >>> smart and caring engineer. >>> >>> -- >>> Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof= .html >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nnagain mailing list >>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain --=20 Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.htm= l Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos