From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pf1-x42d.google.com (mail-pf1-x42d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D38303CB38 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2024 15:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-pf1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-6d9b1589a75so782554b3a.3 for ; Mon, 08 Jan 2024 12:17:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1704745044; x=1705349844; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=O3jI181CPKFAr/cTZN83f2NlrMvs2CL25cIfHM7WLz4=; b=H8kFnc0WBQAif3OUu5URId3sf7ewC281J1/1361EOhTrXnJkeHX0XFYh7akZ0rABT4 UIS9oN4+Fn4dp+zdp0Rj6faKTEBv1iwfFl26/iSCogrzZr8aX3ujGlgbXwmd6J10cL+p rTDUiaUZZ3kHRoWaqz1kFRvVZzWyF4k638FlkQvwIiZy1tDNvQdxI5Y4lwlmOoOV8O/b jxWBJ+jvVDcs1ykOtc3reDFiTogtcqZBHH08m9E23iGS6RFcns7L6/RrX50XRhp3wEdI v2Mn6i2tY3i36hnXtJYx8CAFJ3vZTIWxDboSUAti7HmcJsKG0iCv31/1oNma+ji9idBa Rckw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1704745044; x=1705349844; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=O3jI181CPKFAr/cTZN83f2NlrMvs2CL25cIfHM7WLz4=; b=kIC2ZxplKZhgnRyhN0QUPk/XGWXFysrFsdW1kCS74sHR7aXOPSConqSHrHwhbemldb 2UvjA3swaVxqWNONsO8kSNtWevNI7MftlaqE/YUv8CLeO5EKcIPcXo/ys6+tNyJ/8Iuh v3ZsMrhUGtXmWhwqeAk/KX/mMSOdU7hpvtHU52VzZcZrsinc2i7mr4dE6qBG9Y4S+Lx7 sBckHId2+7drxJZmj5KNKV5qO+c1prgdO7jU7DPETkBArL0byBWGY+Id87wtOV4sS6TR anLC5P0qiJSfDQJmZi4y/C9WW8+9HdsEj3JhGCij5TmS5lBD8t4CZe78AgoBUw8GBTLw pjiQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxdmyeDvijDPbPMOtgtuXgsSlRAVdOfIF+yK2yicL1OgLKjW547 Dxzgu4nYCGyWjwb1xRxVu6XnCsxC5AoH6mUpMWJcmss4iPY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHdmyOkXP+n263rpOEl7BWqBfppGWSkYpv5DGtSungR9PNu6sO9pkgmlzCC5dQ5Akz2f5K2RhL+9tKBJb+PaMY= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8505:0:b0:6d9:b557:fa29 with SMTP id v5-20020aa78505000000b006d9b557fa29mr1898275pfn.64.1704745044129; Mon, 08 Jan 2024 12:17:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2024 15:17:12 -0500 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [NNagain] The growing challenges of discerning authentic vs. inauthentic information and identity X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2024 20:17:26 -0000 Basically I am interested in the intersection between politics and the internet in the context of this list, which is broader than the NN issue. So I appreciate monday conversation starters like these. In my case, I often have to revert to thinking about the present in terms of what used to be science fiction. "Interface" - upon cogitating about what the coming election will look like came to mind - https://www.amazon.com/Interface-Stephen-Bury/dp/0553572407 When I first saw the deepfakes Pr0n phenomenon a few years ago, I had my oh-ghu moment, as I realized once tools like that got into everyone's hands the truth and authenticity of any form of media begin to vanish, and the recent rise of the LLMs *almost* put the finish to it. Thankfully the LLMs (so far) have a terrible tendency to hallucinate which is often easily detectable, and overall, the technoliterati have managed to expel really bad ideas like crypto-grift, web3, and so on in the last few years. Web3 investment is down 70% this year... I now wish very much that the concept of "whuffie" existed in the real world, but the flight to mastodon, twitter's addition of community notes, most of newspapers moving to a for-pay model, and in general, the innoculation of the populace at large to distrust everything they learn on line is well underway which I find some comfort in. Promoting widespread skepticism and disbelief are powerful tools, but trying to find guidelines to what is actually truthful harder. For example, I read wikipedia's talk page on everything controversial. Too few do that. I recently sat through fox news with my mom, because her blood pressure was too low, and it served well to "improve" that, and me, take a lisinopril. Life's just a ride, tho, you know? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_and_Out_in_the_Magic_Kingdom On Wed, Jan 3, 2024 at 9:32=E2=80=AFAM David Bray, PhD via Nnagain wrote: > > Dear NNAgain=E2=80=99ers, > > Today on a different listserv, I joined a discussion on what I sense will= be a pressing issue across multiple sectors in 2024. I recognize this is n= ot NN-related and so if it isn=E2=80=99t of interest, I apologize in advanc= e. However as most of us have technology background here, my sense is we ge= nerally have a better sense of the looming issue than non-technical folks a= t the moment. Below I outline some of the contours of the evolving problem = space, and invite each of you to share your thoughts as I sense the diversi= ty of perspectives here might help with brainstorming potential solutions n= ecessary for civil societies to continue: > > Premise: We are at the precipice of an extended era where inauthenticity = vs. authenticity will be difficult to discern, that that involves multiple = forms of content including biometrics and more. > > In isolated pockets, governments are becoming aware of this - however it= =E2=80=99s going to be really difficult for pluralistic societies like the = U.S. where any of the Estates that traditionally would have a role to play = in verifying the authentic vs. inauthentic nature of something have had pub= lic trust in them as arbiters eroding. And it doesn=E2=80=99t help that bot= h politics and advertisement rely on presenting things as 100% authentic wh= en they=E2=80=99re often only somewhat so (or, to be more generous, mix fac= ts with lots of beliefs). > > Not supporting autocracies, however they have a bit of a =E2=80=9Chome fi= eld=E2=80=9D advantage here because there is only one singular narrative - = and anyone who questions it can be fired/isolated, imprisoned/disappeared, = or killed/executed. Tools of such regimes, to include filtering, censorship= , and repression - will be used to ensure only one narrative (authentic or = not, mostly likely the latter) is seen by a majority of their population. P= luralistic societies will have it much harder, and the last ten years will = pale in comparison to the challenges of sensemaking in a world flooded by b= oth media and mediums of questionable authenticity. > > Back in 2019-2020, I did my darnest to connect Pablo and an additional Pe= ople-Centered Internet expert with Salesforce that has a lot of CRM data wi= th the proposal that SF could provide a feature where, as part of the CRM, = =E2=80=9Cout of band=E2=80=9D questions could be included to do some sort o= f additional level of trust that the entity on the other end was who they c= laimed to be. Unfortunately that pitch was overshadowed by larger concerns = that SF=E2=80=99s software, give some of its features, could be misused in = ways not intended by them (think about ways akin to Cambridge Analytica) an= d they were trying to figure out how they could incorporate features to pre= vent actors from misusing/abusing their software in ways not intended by th= em as a company. > > 2024 is going to be hard. Manipulation of what people appear to see, hear= , sense - and thus know - is becoming sadly easier. > > Meanwhile understanding of the importance of triangulation, triangulation= , triangulation from different perspective to discern authenticity vs. inau= thenticity remains time-consuming and hard. Perhaps we need to consider sta= nding up private sector Dun & Bradstreet-like entities for identity and oth= er important adjudicatory functions - however that doesn=E2=80=99t immediat= ely solve the issue of how to help the public in a would experiencing a flo= od of questionable content, information, and identities? And who =E2=80=9Cw= atches=E2=80=9D the adjudicators? > > David Bray, PhD Principal, LeadDoAdapt Ventures, Inc. > Loomis Innovation Council Co-Chair & Distinguished Fellow > Henry S. Stimson Center, Business Executives for National Security > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain --=20 40 years of net history, a couple songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DD9RGX6QFm5E Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos