[NNagain] Geoff Huston's panel

[NNagain] Geoff Huston's panel

[Dave Taht]

He is being incredibly provocative this week. It hurt to sit through this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxO73fH0VqM

I prioritize communications over content, personally.

-- 
https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/2024_predictions/
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

Re: [NNagain] Geoff Huston's panel

[Lee]

On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 9:12 AM Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote:
>
> He is being incredibly provocative this week. It hurt to sit through this.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxO73fH0VqM

Yes, he's provocative - but also entertaining.  And don't forget the audience:

ABOUT APRICOT

Representing Asia Pacific's largest international Internet conference,
Asia Pacific Regional Internet Conference on Operational Technologies
(APRICOT) draws many of the world's best Internet engineers,
operators, researchers, service providers, users and policy
communities from over 50 countries to teach, present, and do their own
human networking.

His last slide deck seemed to be a call to arms.  He's near the end of
his career, so for all the Internet engineers, etc.  I saw it as a
"here's where we're going.  Do you want to contribute to this trend or
take the Internet in a different direction?"

For example, after talking about CDNs and how most content is now
local he brings up the bit about if 10% of your traffic costs you 90%
of your carriage costs, if I was a rational provider, I would say to
all those customers who need that 10% of the traffic go find someone
else. I'm not going to do it.  Don't forget, this is a deregulated
world - you can do that.  There is no universal obligation to carry
default.

Does network neutrality require an ISP to connect you to the Internet
at large?  Or do they get to drop the "expensive" traffic that
requires connecting to a transit provider (or however they do it now
to connect to the global Internet).

I was a bit dubious about the assertion that most traffic stays within
the AS but surprise, surprise, surprise (most people here are old
enough to remember Gomer Pyle.. right?).. youtube content is in the
Verizon network.  Start wireshark, get the IP address of the youtube
server and
$ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:803:f00::e
traceroute to 2600:803:f00::e (2600:803:f00::e), 30 hops max, 72 byte packets
  <.. snip ..>
 3  2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701]  33.323 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324
[AS701]  2.542 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701]  33.315 ms
 4  * * *
 5  2600:803:6af::6 [AS701]  3.843 ms  3.838 ms  3.834 ms
 6  2600:803:f00::e [AS701]  2.911 ms  2.216 ms  2.472 ms

Do the same for Netflix and I get three [??] different ASs:
$ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617
traceroute to 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617
(2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617), 30 hops max, 72 byte
packets
  <.. snip ..>
 5  2600:803:9af::82 [AS701]  8.048 ms 2600:803:9af::5a [AS701]  8.297
ms 2600:803:2::5a [AS701]  8.294 ms
 6  * 2620:107:4000:c5c0::f3fd:f [*]  2.846 ms
2620:107:4000:c5c1::f3fd:20 [*]  2.810 ms
 7  2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d5b1 [*]  8.148 ms
2620:107:4000:cfff::f203:54b1 [*]  5.289 ms
2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d4b1 [*]  4.300 ms
 8  2620:107:4000:a793::f000:3863 [*]  4.865 ms
2620:107:4000:a610::f000:2403 [*]  5.245 ms
2620:107:4000:acd3::f000:e060 [*]  5.201 ms
 9  * * *
10  2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509]  4.881
ms  4.864 ms  4.848 ms
11  2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509]  6.351
ms  6.075 ms  5.935 ms

Does it violate network neutrality that youtube content takes the
"fast lane" getting to me?

and just for chuckles..
$ dig 2024.apricot.net aaaa +short
2001:dd8:f::1

$ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2001:dd8:f::1
traceroute to 2001:dd8:f::1 (2001:dd8:f::1), 30 hops max, 72 byte packets
  <.. snip ..>
 3  2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701]  27.390 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326
[AS701]  5.711 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701]  27.384 ms
 4  * * *
 5  * * 2001:2035:0:bb3::1 [AS1299]  7.235 ms
 6  2001:2034:1:73::1 [AS1299]  7.763 ms  6.033 ms  5.996 ms
 7  2001:2034:1:b7::1 [AS1299]  11.530 ms 2001:2034:1:b8::1 [AS1299]
10.704 ms *
 8  * * *
 9  2001:2000:3080:230d::2 [AS1299]  72.609 ms  72.594 ms  73.096 ms
10  * * *
11  * * *
12  * * *
13  * 2402:7800:10::2 [AS4826]  289.033 ms *
14  2402:7800:10:1::12 [AS4826]  290.608 ms  292.440 ms  290.840 ms
15  2402:7800:10:8::16 [AS4826]  228.836 ms  229.406 ms  231.379 ms
16  2001:dd8:8:38::2 [AS4608]  233.803 ms  231.332 ms  233.572 ms
17  2001:dd8:f::1 [AS4608]  231.822 ms  231.137 ms  232.772 ms

Oh my.. I'm betting that's a lot more than 100 miles away :)

Regards,
Lee

Re: [NNagain] Geoff Huston's panel

[Dave Taht]

On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 12:26 PM Lee via Nnagain
<nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 9:12 AM Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote:
> >
> > He is being incredibly provocative this week. It hurt to sit through this.
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxO73fH0VqM
>
> Yes, he's provocative - but also entertaining.  And don't forget the audience:


> ABOUT APRICOT
>
> Representing Asia Pacific's largest international Internet conference,
> Asia Pacific Regional Internet Conference on Operational Technologies
> (APRICOT) draws many of the world's best Internet engineers,
> operators, researchers, service providers, users and policy
> communities from over 50 countries to teach, present, and do their own
> human networking.
>
> His last slide deck seemed to be a call to arms.  He's near the end of
> his career, so for all the Internet engineers, etc.  I saw it as a
> "here's where we're going.  Do you want to contribute to this trend or
> take the Internet in a different direction?"

I perceive the internet as a communications network, not just as a
content one. Chat, email, and other bidirectional communications
are the most useful parts of it, and cannot be cached.

>
> For example, after talking about CDNs and how most content is now
> local he brings up the bit about if 10% of your traffic costs you 90%
> of your carriage costs, if I was a rational provider, I would say to
> all those customers who need that 10% of the traffic go find someone
> else. I'm not going to do it.  Don't forget, this is a deregulated
> world - you can do that.  There is no universal obligation to carry
> default.

So the audience was in the cheap seats in the back like me, were
silently grinding their teeth?

> Does network neutrality require an ISP to connect you to the Internet
> at large?  Or do they get to drop the "expensive" traffic that
> requires connecting to a transit provider (or however they do it now
> to connect to the global Internet).
>
> I was a bit dubious about the assertion that most traffic stays within
> the AS but surprise, surprise, surprise (most people here are old
> enough to remember Gomer Pyle.. right?).. youtube content is in the
> Verizon network.  Start wireshark, get the IP address of the youtube
> server and
> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:803:f00::e
> traceroute to 2600:803:f00::e (2600:803:f00::e), 30 hops max, 72 byte packets
>   <.. snip ..>
>  3  2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701]  33.323 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324
> [AS701]  2.542 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701]  33.315 ms
>  4  * * *
>  5  2600:803:6af::6 [AS701]  3.843 ms  3.838 ms  3.834 ms
>  6  2600:803:f00::e [AS701]  2.911 ms  2.216 ms  2.472 ms
>
> Do the same for Netflix and I get three [??] different ASs:
> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617
> traceroute to 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617
> (2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617), 30 hops max, 72 byte
> packets
>   <.. snip ..>
>  5  2600:803:9af::82 [AS701]  8.048 ms 2600:803:9af::5a [AS701]  8.297
> ms 2600:803:2::5a [AS701]  8.294 ms
>  6  * 2620:107:4000:c5c0::f3fd:f [*]  2.846 ms
> 2620:107:4000:c5c1::f3fd:20 [*]  2.810 ms
>  7  2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d5b1 [*]  8.148 ms
> 2620:107:4000:cfff::f203:54b1 [*]  5.289 ms
> 2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d4b1 [*]  4.300 ms
>  8  2620:107:4000:a793::f000:3863 [*]  4.865 ms
> 2620:107:4000:a610::f000:2403 [*]  5.245 ms
> 2620:107:4000:acd3::f000:e060 [*]  5.201 ms
>  9  * * *
> 10  2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509]  4.881
> ms  4.864 ms  4.848 ms
> 11  2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509]  6.351
> ms  6.075 ms  5.935 ms
>
> Does it violate network neutrality that youtube content takes the
> "fast lane" getting to me?
>
> and just for chuckles..
> $ dig 2024.apricot.net aaaa +short
> 2001:dd8:f::1

Anycast technology can certainly be applied to more parts of the
internet than it is today.

QUIC tho, seems to enable the idea that all of google could run off of
8.8.8.9, all of cloudflare, 1.1.1.9, etc.

>
> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2001:dd8:f::1
> traceroute to 2001:dd8:f::1 (2001:dd8:f::1), 30 hops max, 72 byte packets
>   <.. snip ..>
>  3  2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701]  27.390 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326
> [AS701]  5.711 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701]  27.384 ms
>  4  * * *
>  5  * * 2001:2035:0:bb3::1 [AS1299]  7.235 ms
>  6  2001:2034:1:73::1 [AS1299]  7.763 ms  6.033 ms  5.996 ms
>  7  2001:2034:1:b7::1 [AS1299]  11.530 ms 2001:2034:1:b8::1 [AS1299]
> 10.704 ms *
>  8  * * *
>  9  2001:2000:3080:230d::2 [AS1299]  72.609 ms  72.594 ms  73.096 ms
> 10  * * *
> 11  * * *
> 12  * * *
> 13  * 2402:7800:10::2 [AS4826]  289.033 ms *
> 14  2402:7800:10:1::12 [AS4826]  290.608 ms  292.440 ms  290.840 ms
> 15  2402:7800:10:8::16 [AS4826]  228.836 ms  229.406 ms  231.379 ms
> 16  2001:dd8:8:38::2 [AS4608]  233.803 ms  231.332 ms  233.572 ms
> 17  2001:dd8:f::1 [AS4608]  231.822 ms  231.137 ms  232.772 ms
>
> Oh my.. I'm betting that's a lot more than 100 miles away :)
>
> Regards,
> Lee
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain



-- 
https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/2024_predictions/
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

Re: [NNagain] Geoff Huston's panel

[rjmcmahon]

Get rid of the advertisers as the source of funds and everything 
changes. This projection was obvious from how radio and television 
rolled out in their days, being driven by Kraft TV and those soap 
operas. The show was built for the ad, not the other way around. It's 
also not a technology thing but a content creator's getting paid thing, 
again all so an ad can be delivered. The dearth in high quality content 
is that people will have to pay. We may never pay but that's on us and 
our free rider thinking vs on technology or comm infra. We said goodbye 
to journalists as Yahoo did in 2000 when asked if they would ever pay 
one for the news articles they were "stealing" and the young execs said, 
"No. I don't see why I would have to."

Our communications networks have to move beyond entertainment and social 
affirmations. They have to become life support capable. This includes in 
home WiFi networks. Just as every power receptacle in a house isn't for 
a TV, a network comm channel, port or whatever it's called, is not only 
for a humans directly either, at least not per our very limited 5 
sensory system and our error prone brains.

Machines and senors are going to be a major sea change but it's hard 
work to get there, particularly when building off a last mile 
infrastructure built for HBO and NFL.

Or legacy isn't about advertising from the broadcast networks or about 
some of the worst computers possible, something now called a smart 
phone, which isn't true. It's not about AI, VR, AR etc either. It's 
about communications as fundamental infrastructure and everything that 
entails which goes way beyond ip addresses and CDNs. Fields like 
linguistics come to mind.

Predicting the future from the past is easy. Making a different future 
other than the past is hard. What's old is new again until somebody 
decides to actually innovate.

Just my $0.02,
Bob
> On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 12:26 PM Lee via Nnagain
> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> 
>> On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 9:12 AM Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote:
>> >
>> > He is being incredibly provocative this week. It hurt to sit through this.
>> >
>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxO73fH0VqM
>> 
>> Yes, he's provocative - but also entertaining.  And don't forget the 
>> audience:
> 
> 
>> ABOUT APRICOT
>> 
>> Representing Asia Pacific's largest international Internet conference,
>> Asia Pacific Regional Internet Conference on Operational Technologies
>> (APRICOT) draws many of the world's best Internet engineers,
>> operators, researchers, service providers, users and policy
>> communities from over 50 countries to teach, present, and do their own
>> human networking.
>> 
>> His last slide deck seemed to be a call to arms.  He's near the end of
>> his career, so for all the Internet engineers, etc.  I saw it as a
>> "here's where we're going.  Do you want to contribute to this trend or
>> take the Internet in a different direction?"
> 
> I perceive the internet as a communications network, not just as a
> content one. Chat, email, and other bidirectional communications
> are the most useful parts of it, and cannot be cached.
> 
>> 
>> For example, after talking about CDNs and how most content is now
>> local he brings up the bit about if 10% of your traffic costs you 90%
>> of your carriage costs, if I was a rational provider, I would say to
>> all those customers who need that 10% of the traffic go find someone
>> else. I'm not going to do it.  Don't forget, this is a deregulated
>> world - you can do that.  There is no universal obligation to carry
>> default.
> 
> So the audience was in the cheap seats in the back like me, were
> silently grinding their teeth?
> 
>> Does network neutrality require an ISP to connect you to the Internet
>> at large?  Or do they get to drop the "expensive" traffic that
>> requires connecting to a transit provider (or however they do it now
>> to connect to the global Internet).
>> 
>> I was a bit dubious about the assertion that most traffic stays within
>> the AS but surprise, surprise, surprise (most people here are old
>> enough to remember Gomer Pyle.. right?).. youtube content is in the
>> Verizon network.  Start wireshark, get the IP address of the youtube
>> server and
>> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:803:f00::e
>> traceroute to 2600:803:f00::e (2600:803:f00::e), 30 hops max, 72 byte 
>> packets
>>   <.. snip ..>
>>  3  2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701]  33.323 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324
>> [AS701]  2.542 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701]  33.315 ms
>>  4  * * *
>>  5  2600:803:6af::6 [AS701]  3.843 ms  3.838 ms  3.834 ms
>>  6  2600:803:f00::e [AS701]  2.911 ms  2.216 ms  2.472 ms
>> 
>> Do the same for Netflix and I get three [??] different ASs:
>> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617
>> traceroute to 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617
>> (2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617), 30 hops max, 72 byte
>> packets
>>   <.. snip ..>
>>  5  2600:803:9af::82 [AS701]  8.048 ms 2600:803:9af::5a [AS701]  8.297
>> ms 2600:803:2::5a [AS701]  8.294 ms
>>  6  * 2620:107:4000:c5c0::f3fd:f [*]  2.846 ms
>> 2620:107:4000:c5c1::f3fd:20 [*]  2.810 ms
>>  7  2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d5b1 [*]  8.148 ms
>> 2620:107:4000:cfff::f203:54b1 [*]  5.289 ms
>> 2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d4b1 [*]  4.300 ms
>>  8  2620:107:4000:a793::f000:3863 [*]  4.865 ms
>> 2620:107:4000:a610::f000:2403 [*]  5.245 ms
>> 2620:107:4000:acd3::f000:e060 [*]  5.201 ms
>>  9  * * *
>> 10  2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509]  4.881
>> ms  4.864 ms  4.848 ms
>> 11  2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509]  6.351
>> ms  6.075 ms  5.935 ms
>> 
>> Does it violate network neutrality that youtube content takes the
>> "fast lane" getting to me?
>> 
>> and just for chuckles..
>> $ dig 2024.apricot.net aaaa +short
>> 2001:dd8:f::1
> 
> Anycast technology can certainly be applied to more parts of the
> internet than it is today.
> 
> QUIC tho, seems to enable the idea that all of google could run off of
> 8.8.8.9, all of cloudflare, 1.1.1.9, etc.
> 
>> 
>> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2001:dd8:f::1
>> traceroute to 2001:dd8:f::1 (2001:dd8:f::1), 30 hops max, 72 byte 
>> packets
>>   <.. snip ..>
>>  3  2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701]  27.390 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326
>> [AS701]  5.711 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701]  27.384 ms
>>  4  * * *
>>  5  * * 2001:2035:0:bb3::1 [AS1299]  7.235 ms
>>  6  2001:2034:1:73::1 [AS1299]  7.763 ms  6.033 ms  5.996 ms
>>  7  2001:2034:1:b7::1 [AS1299]  11.530 ms 2001:2034:1:b8::1 [AS1299]
>> 10.704 ms *
>>  8  * * *
>>  9  2001:2000:3080:230d::2 [AS1299]  72.609 ms  72.594 ms  73.096 ms
>> 10  * * *
>> 11  * * *
>> 12  * * *
>> 13  * 2402:7800:10::2 [AS4826]  289.033 ms *
>> 14  2402:7800:10:1::12 [AS4826]  290.608 ms  292.440 ms  290.840 ms
>> 15  2402:7800:10:8::16 [AS4826]  228.836 ms  229.406 ms  231.379 ms
>> 16  2001:dd8:8:38::2 [AS4608]  233.803 ms  231.332 ms  233.572 ms
>> 17  2001:dd8:f::1 [AS4608]  231.822 ms  231.137 ms  232.772 ms
>> 
>> Oh my.. I'm betting that's a lot more than 100 miles away :)
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Lee
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nnagain mailing list
>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain

Re: [NNagain] Geoff Huston's panel

[rjmcmahon]

Van Jacobson had a talk about content networking in 2012. His 
perspective is from a network view.

https://youtu.be/Bc-4PJPxfVQ?feature=shared

TV affiliates could have inserted their own ads but nationals (ABC, CBS 
and NBC) had the copyright to the content. It wasn't technology that 
stopped the affiliates but what came to be known as broadcast rights. 
And lots of case law. The biggest "affiliates" with access to content 
where in NYC, hence that's why they're there.

A digression: It is interesting that Comcast is in Philly, though 
Comcast bought 30 Rock in NYC. The same Rockefeller that was the richest 
man to ever walk the planet. Ralph Roberts and Comcast origins came 
through Tulepo, Mississippi. Never bet against those who make things 
work for poorer communities. They most always win in the long run. 
Colleges that have an origin story of a YMCA sign (vs a $305M data 
center landmark building are ones not to bet against either. Boston 
really should lead the world in real broadband, which includes FiWi, by 
my judgment.)

Today majors with mail, social networks, etc. have basically skirted 
copyrights in the transition from broadcast to unicast. And are doing 
the same with so-called generative AI. Of course, they and the end 
device mfgs are going to use encryption to control the content. Less 
case law required.

The whole theory presented by Geoff of going back to a TV model is only 
true if we accept that we can't pay for digital things, rather it has to 
be paid from trillion dollar+ ad budgets. More Cheez Whiz so-to-speak 
but targeted. I like blue fake cheez so I'll get that.

The idea that ten CDNs are going to dominate is a bit silly to me. 
Setting up servers is easier and easier. It's also why companies like 
Cloudflare are giving away QUIC stacks so they can be the CDN point that 
decrypts. I'm skeptical that the digital world is going to stop at 
HTTP3/QUIC. TCP seems good to me for many things, like new apps that 
don't need a CDN encrypt-er for ad delivery. Today's technology may not 
map to next week, particularly if it's all software.

My take is that the innovation in sw & devices has been basically 
stalled since the mobile phone become the common person's computer and 
Steve Jobs passed. People are being trained on substandard devices and 
substandard mobile networks that, yes, are basically provided by the 
RBOCs who renamed themselves. The richest technologists tend to focus on 
data centers and don't want to make products for the common person. Just 
another epitaph per Thomas Gray and his Churchyard elegy.

I think we are in a state of what's old is new again. Not all that 
innovative (though does make for trips to Thailand and talks about 
elephants I guess.) I don't think we have to repeat history all the 
time. Though behaviors like wars over religious beliefs does suggest the 
human condition struggles to overcome historical cultural values, which 
much of the time should be abandoned.

We get to choose our epitaphs, not so much in words, but more so in our 
actions. I hope for our kids sake we each and all choose well. Pay a 
woman an honest pay for her work and don't ask advertisers to respect 
privacy and pay for things at the same time. Choosy mothers choose Jif 
no more.

Bob
> Get rid of the advertisers as the source of funds and everything
> changes. This projection was obvious from how radio and television
> rolled out in their days, being driven by Kraft TV and those soap
> operas. The show was built for the ad, not the other way around. It's
> also not a technology thing but a content creator's getting paid
> thing, again all so an ad can be delivered. The dearth in high quality
> content is that people will have to pay. We may never pay but that's
> on us and our free rider thinking vs on technology or comm infra. We
> said goodbye to journalists as Yahoo did in 2000 when asked if they
> would ever pay one for the news articles they were "stealing" and the
> young execs said, "No. I don't see why I would have to."
> 
> Our communications networks have to move beyond entertainment and
> social affirmations. They have to become life support capable. This
> includes in home WiFi networks. Just as every power receptacle in a
> house isn't for a TV, a network comm channel, port or whatever it's
> called, is not only for a humans directly either, at least not per our
> very limited 5 sensory system and our error prone brains.
> 
> Machines and senors are going to be a major sea change but it's hard
> work to get there, particularly when building off a last mile
> infrastructure built for HBO and NFL.
> 
> Or legacy isn't about advertising from the broadcast networks or about
> some of the worst computers possible, something now called a smart
> phone, which isn't true. It's not about AI, VR, AR etc either. It's
> about communications as fundamental infrastructure and everything that
> entails which goes way beyond ip addresses and CDNs. Fields like
> linguistics come to mind.
> 
> Predicting the future from the past is easy. Making a different future
> other than the past is hard. What's old is new again until somebody
> decides to actually innovate.
> 
> Just my $0.02,
> Bob
>> On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 12:26 PM Lee via Nnagain
>> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 9:12 AM Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote:
>>> >
>>> > He is being incredibly provocative this week. It hurt to sit through this.
>>> >
>>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxO73fH0VqM
>>> 
>>> Yes, he's provocative - but also entertaining.  And don't forget the 
>>> audience:
>> 
>> 
>>> ABOUT APRICOT
>>> 
>>> Representing Asia Pacific's largest international Internet 
>>> conference,
>>> Asia Pacific Regional Internet Conference on Operational Technologies
>>> (APRICOT) draws many of the world's best Internet engineers,
>>> operators, researchers, service providers, users and policy
>>> communities from over 50 countries to teach, present, and do their 
>>> own
>>> human networking.
>>> 
>>> His last slide deck seemed to be a call to arms.  He's near the end 
>>> of
>>> his career, so for all the Internet engineers, etc.  I saw it as a
>>> "here's where we're going.  Do you want to contribute to this trend 
>>> or
>>> take the Internet in a different direction?"
>> 
>> I perceive the internet as a communications network, not just as a
>> content one. Chat, email, and other bidirectional communications
>> are the most useful parts of it, and cannot be cached.
>> 
>>> 
>>> For example, after talking about CDNs and how most content is now
>>> local he brings up the bit about if 10% of your traffic costs you 90%
>>> of your carriage costs, if I was a rational provider, I would say to
>>> all those customers who need that 10% of the traffic go find someone
>>> else. I'm not going to do it.  Don't forget, this is a deregulated
>>> world - you can do that.  There is no universal obligation to carry
>>> default.
>> 
>> So the audience was in the cheap seats in the back like me, were
>> silently grinding their teeth?
>> 
>>> Does network neutrality require an ISP to connect you to the Internet
>>> at large?  Or do they get to drop the "expensive" traffic that
>>> requires connecting to a transit provider (or however they do it now
>>> to connect to the global Internet).
>>> 
>>> I was a bit dubious about the assertion that most traffic stays 
>>> within
>>> the AS but surprise, surprise, surprise (most people here are old
>>> enough to remember Gomer Pyle.. right?).. youtube content is in the
>>> Verizon network.  Start wireshark, get the IP address of the youtube
>>> server and
>>> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:803:f00::e
>>> traceroute to 2600:803:f00::e (2600:803:f00::e), 30 hops max, 72 byte 
>>> packets
>>>   <.. snip ..>
>>>  3  2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701]  33.323 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324
>>> [AS701]  2.542 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701]  33.315 ms
>>>  4  * * *
>>>  5  2600:803:6af::6 [AS701]  3.843 ms  3.838 ms  3.834 ms
>>>  6  2600:803:f00::e [AS701]  2.911 ms  2.216 ms  2.472 ms
>>> 
>>> Do the same for Netflix and I get three [??] different ASs:
>>> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617
>>> traceroute to 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617
>>> (2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617), 30 hops max, 72 byte
>>> packets
>>>   <.. snip ..>
>>>  5  2600:803:9af::82 [AS701]  8.048 ms 2600:803:9af::5a [AS701]  
>>> 8.297
>>> ms 2600:803:2::5a [AS701]  8.294 ms
>>>  6  * 2620:107:4000:c5c0::f3fd:f [*]  2.846 ms
>>> 2620:107:4000:c5c1::f3fd:20 [*]  2.810 ms
>>>  7  2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d5b1 [*]  8.148 ms
>>> 2620:107:4000:cfff::f203:54b1 [*]  5.289 ms
>>> 2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d4b1 [*]  4.300 ms
>>>  8  2620:107:4000:a793::f000:3863 [*]  4.865 ms
>>> 2620:107:4000:a610::f000:2403 [*]  5.245 ms
>>> 2620:107:4000:acd3::f000:e060 [*]  5.201 ms
>>>  9  * * *
>>> 10  2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509]  4.881
>>> ms  4.864 ms  4.848 ms
>>> 11  2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509]  6.351
>>> ms  6.075 ms  5.935 ms
>>> 
>>> Does it violate network neutrality that youtube content takes the
>>> "fast lane" getting to me?
>>> 
>>> and just for chuckles..
>>> $ dig 2024.apricot.net aaaa +short
>>> 2001:dd8:f::1
>> 
>> Anycast technology can certainly be applied to more parts of the
>> internet than it is today.
>> 
>> QUIC tho, seems to enable the idea that all of google could run off of
>> 8.8.8.9, all of cloudflare, 1.1.1.9, etc.
>> 
>>> 
>>> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2001:dd8:f::1
>>> traceroute to 2001:dd8:f::1 (2001:dd8:f::1), 30 hops max, 72 byte 
>>> packets
>>>   <.. snip ..>
>>>  3  2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701]  27.390 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326
>>> [AS701]  5.711 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701]  27.384 ms
>>>  4  * * *
>>>  5  * * 2001:2035:0:bb3::1 [AS1299]  7.235 ms
>>>  6  2001:2034:1:73::1 [AS1299]  7.763 ms  6.033 ms  5.996 ms
>>>  7  2001:2034:1:b7::1 [AS1299]  11.530 ms 2001:2034:1:b8::1 [AS1299]
>>> 10.704 ms *
>>>  8  * * *
>>>  9  2001:2000:3080:230d::2 [AS1299]  72.609 ms  72.594 ms  73.096 ms
>>> 10  * * *
>>> 11  * * *
>>> 12  * * *
>>> 13  * 2402:7800:10::2 [AS4826]  289.033 ms *
>>> 14  2402:7800:10:1::12 [AS4826]  290.608 ms  292.440 ms  290.840 ms
>>> 15  2402:7800:10:8::16 [AS4826]  228.836 ms  229.406 ms  231.379 ms
>>> 16  2001:dd8:8:38::2 [AS4608]  233.803 ms  231.332 ms  233.572 ms
>>> 17  2001:dd8:f::1 [AS4608]  231.822 ms  231.137 ms  232.772 ms
>>> 
>>> Oh my.. I'm betting that's a lot more than 100 miles away :)
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Lee
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nnagain mailing list
>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain

Re: [NNagain] Geoff Huston's panel

[Bill Woodcock]

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> On Feb 29, 2024, at 23:02, rjmcmahon via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> TV affiliates could have inserted their own ads but nationals (ABC, CBS and NBC) had the copyright to the content. It wasn't technology that stopped the affiliates but what came to be known as broadcast rights. And lots of case law. 

Back in the 2000-2005 timeframe, prior to HTTPS becoming ubiquitous, there was a lot of work on local ad-replacement on the web, particularly in countries that were receiving advertising primarily in languages their users didn’t speak.  That was also prior to most of the per-user tracking and cache-busting, of course.

                                -Bill


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Re: [NNagain] Geoff Huston's panel

[Dave Taht]

I put a link to Geoff´s talk over here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39561073

On Fri, Mar 1, 2024 at 6:00 AM Bill Woodcock via Nnagain
<nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 29, 2024, at 23:02, rjmcmahon via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > TV affiliates could have inserted their own ads but nationals (ABC, CBS and NBC) had the copyright to the content. It wasn't technology that stopped the affiliates but what came to be known as broadcast rights. And lots of case law.
>
> Back in the 2000-2005 timeframe, prior to HTTPS becoming ubiquitous, there was a lot of work on local ad-replacement on the web, particularly in countries that were receiving advertising primarily in languages their users didn’t speak.  That was also prior to most of the per-user tracking and cache-busting, of course.
>
>                                 -Bill
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain



-- 
https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/2024_predictions/
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

[NNagain] Towards a speed of light internet

[Dave Taht]

This paper was written in 2014. How far have we come?

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1505.03449.pdf

On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 11:02 PM rjmcmahon via Nnagain
<nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> Van Jacobson had a talk about content networking in 2012. His
> perspective is from a network view.
>
> https://youtu.be/Bc-4PJPxfVQ?feature=shared
>
> TV affiliates could have inserted their own ads but nationals (ABC, CBS
> and NBC) had the copyright to the content. It wasn't technology that
> stopped the affiliates but what came to be known as broadcast rights.
> And lots of case law. The biggest "affiliates" with access to content
> where in NYC, hence that's why they're there.
>
> A digression: It is interesting that Comcast is in Philly, though
> Comcast bought 30 Rock in NYC. The same Rockefeller that was the richest
> man to ever walk the planet. Ralph Roberts and Comcast origins came
> through Tulepo, Mississippi. Never bet against those who make things
> work for poorer communities. They most always win in the long run.
> Colleges that have an origin story of a YMCA sign (vs a $305M data
> center landmark building are ones not to bet against either. Boston
> really should lead the world in real broadband, which includes FiWi, by
> my judgment.)
>
> Today majors with mail, social networks, etc. have basically skirted
> copyrights in the transition from broadcast to unicast. And are doing
> the same with so-called generative AI. Of course, they and the end
> device mfgs are going to use encryption to control the content. Less
> case law required.
>
> The whole theory presented by Geoff of going back to a TV model is only
> true if we accept that we can't pay for digital things, rather it has to
> be paid from trillion dollar+ ad budgets. More Cheez Whiz so-to-speak
> but targeted. I like blue fake cheez so I'll get that.
>
> The idea that ten CDNs are going to dominate is a bit silly to me.
> Setting up servers is easier and easier. It's also why companies like
> Cloudflare are giving away QUIC stacks so they can be the CDN point that
> decrypts. I'm skeptical that the digital world is going to stop at
> HTTP3/QUIC. TCP seems good to me for many things, like new apps that
> don't need a CDN encrypt-er for ad delivery. Today's technology may not
> map to next week, particularly if it's all software.
>
> My take is that the innovation in sw & devices has been basically
> stalled since the mobile phone become the common person's computer and
> Steve Jobs passed. People are being trained on substandard devices and
> substandard mobile networks that, yes, are basically provided by the
> RBOCs who renamed themselves. The richest technologists tend to focus on
> data centers and don't want to make products for the common person. Just
> another epitaph per Thomas Gray and his Churchyard elegy.
>
> I think we are in a state of what's old is new again. Not all that
> innovative (though does make for trips to Thailand and talks about
> elephants I guess.) I don't think we have to repeat history all the
> time. Though behaviors like wars over religious beliefs does suggest the
> human condition struggles to overcome historical cultural values, which
> much of the time should be abandoned.
>
> We get to choose our epitaphs, not so much in words, but more so in our
> actions. I hope for our kids sake we each and all choose well. Pay a
> woman an honest pay for her work and don't ask advertisers to respect
> privacy and pay for things at the same time. Choosy mothers choose Jif
> no more.
>
> Bob
> > Get rid of the advertisers as the source of funds and everything
> > changes. This projection was obvious from how radio and television
> > rolled out in their days, being driven by Kraft TV and those soap
> > operas. The show was built for the ad, not the other way around. It's
> > also not a technology thing but a content creator's getting paid
> > thing, again all so an ad can be delivered. The dearth in high quality
> > content is that people will have to pay. We may never pay but that's
> > on us and our free rider thinking vs on technology or comm infra. We
> > said goodbye to journalists as Yahoo did in 2000 when asked if they
> > would ever pay one for the news articles they were "stealing" and the
> > young execs said, "No. I don't see why I would have to."
> >
> > Our communications networks have to move beyond entertainment and
> > social affirmations. They have to become life support capable. This
> > includes in home WiFi networks. Just as every power receptacle in a
> > house isn't for a TV, a network comm channel, port or whatever it's
> > called, is not only for a humans directly either, at least not per our
> > very limited 5 sensory system and our error prone brains.
> >
> > Machines and senors are going to be a major sea change but it's hard
> > work to get there, particularly when building off a last mile
> > infrastructure built for HBO and NFL.
> >
> > Or legacy isn't about advertising from the broadcast networks or about
> > some of the worst computers possible, something now called a smart
> > phone, which isn't true. It's not about AI, VR, AR etc either. It's
> > about communications as fundamental infrastructure and everything that
> > entails which goes way beyond ip addresses and CDNs. Fields like
> > linguistics come to mind.
> >
> > Predicting the future from the past is easy. Making a different future
> > other than the past is hard. What's old is new again until somebody
> > decides to actually innovate.
> >
> > Just my $0.02,
> > Bob
> >> On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 12:26 PM Lee via Nnagain
> >> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 9:12 AM Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > He is being incredibly provocative this week. It hurt to sit through this.
> >>> >
> >>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxO73fH0VqM
> >>>
> >>> Yes, he's provocative - but also entertaining.  And don't forget the
> >>> audience:
> >>
> >>
> >>> ABOUT APRICOT
> >>>
> >>> Representing Asia Pacific's largest international Internet
> >>> conference,
> >>> Asia Pacific Regional Internet Conference on Operational Technologies
> >>> (APRICOT) draws many of the world's best Internet engineers,
> >>> operators, researchers, service providers, users and policy
> >>> communities from over 50 countries to teach, present, and do their
> >>> own
> >>> human networking.
> >>>
> >>> His last slide deck seemed to be a call to arms.  He's near the end
> >>> of
> >>> his career, so for all the Internet engineers, etc.  I saw it as a
> >>> "here's where we're going.  Do you want to contribute to this trend
> >>> or
> >>> take the Internet in a different direction?"
> >>
> >> I perceive the internet as a communications network, not just as a
> >> content one. Chat, email, and other bidirectional communications
> >> are the most useful parts of it, and cannot be cached.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> For example, after talking about CDNs and how most content is now
> >>> local he brings up the bit about if 10% of your traffic costs you 90%
> >>> of your carriage costs, if I was a rational provider, I would say to
> >>> all those customers who need that 10% of the traffic go find someone
> >>> else. I'm not going to do it.  Don't forget, this is a deregulated
> >>> world - you can do that.  There is no universal obligation to carry
> >>> default.
> >>
> >> So the audience was in the cheap seats in the back like me, were
> >> silently grinding their teeth?
> >>
> >>> Does network neutrality require an ISP to connect you to the Internet
> >>> at large?  Or do they get to drop the "expensive" traffic that
> >>> requires connecting to a transit provider (or however they do it now
> >>> to connect to the global Internet).
> >>>
> >>> I was a bit dubious about the assertion that most traffic stays
> >>> within
> >>> the AS but surprise, surprise, surprise (most people here are old
> >>> enough to remember Gomer Pyle.. right?).. youtube content is in the
> >>> Verizon network.  Start wireshark, get the IP address of the youtube
> >>> server and
> >>> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:803:f00::e
> >>> traceroute to 2600:803:f00::e (2600:803:f00::e), 30 hops max, 72 byte
> >>> packets
> >>>   <.. snip ..>
> >>>  3  2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701]  33.323 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324
> >>> [AS701]  2.542 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701]  33.315 ms
> >>>  4  * * *
> >>>  5  2600:803:6af::6 [AS701]  3.843 ms  3.838 ms  3.834 ms
> >>>  6  2600:803:f00::e [AS701]  2.911 ms  2.216 ms  2.472 ms
> >>>
> >>> Do the same for Netflix and I get three [??] different ASs:
> >>> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617
> >>> traceroute to 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617
> >>> (2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617), 30 hops max, 72 byte
> >>> packets
> >>>   <.. snip ..>
> >>>  5  2600:803:9af::82 [AS701]  8.048 ms 2600:803:9af::5a [AS701]
> >>> 8.297
> >>> ms 2600:803:2::5a [AS701]  8.294 ms
> >>>  6  * 2620:107:4000:c5c0::f3fd:f [*]  2.846 ms
> >>> 2620:107:4000:c5c1::f3fd:20 [*]  2.810 ms
> >>>  7  2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d5b1 [*]  8.148 ms
> >>> 2620:107:4000:cfff::f203:54b1 [*]  5.289 ms
> >>> 2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d4b1 [*]  4.300 ms
> >>>  8  2620:107:4000:a793::f000:3863 [*]  4.865 ms
> >>> 2620:107:4000:a610::f000:2403 [*]  5.245 ms
> >>> 2620:107:4000:acd3::f000:e060 [*]  5.201 ms
> >>>  9  * * *
> >>> 10  2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509]  4.881
> >>> ms  4.864 ms  4.848 ms
> >>> 11  2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509]  6.351
> >>> ms  6.075 ms  5.935 ms
> >>>
> >>> Does it violate network neutrality that youtube content takes the
> >>> "fast lane" getting to me?
> >>>
> >>> and just for chuckles..
> >>> $ dig 2024.apricot.net aaaa +short
> >>> 2001:dd8:f::1
> >>
> >> Anycast technology can certainly be applied to more parts of the
> >> internet than it is today.
> >>
> >> QUIC tho, seems to enable the idea that all of google could run off of
> >> 8.8.8.9, all of cloudflare, 1.1.1.9, etc.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2001:dd8:f::1
> >>> traceroute to 2001:dd8:f::1 (2001:dd8:f::1), 30 hops max, 72 byte
> >>> packets
> >>>   <.. snip ..>
> >>>  3  2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701]  27.390 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326
> >>> [AS701]  5.711 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701]  27.384 ms
> >>>  4  * * *
> >>>  5  * * 2001:2035:0:bb3::1 [AS1299]  7.235 ms
> >>>  6  2001:2034:1:73::1 [AS1299]  7.763 ms  6.033 ms  5.996 ms
> >>>  7  2001:2034:1:b7::1 [AS1299]  11.530 ms 2001:2034:1:b8::1 [AS1299]
> >>> 10.704 ms *
> >>>  8  * * *
> >>>  9  2001:2000:3080:230d::2 [AS1299]  72.609 ms  72.594 ms  73.096 ms
> >>> 10  * * *
> >>> 11  * * *
> >>> 12  * * *
> >>> 13  * 2402:7800:10::2 [AS4826]  289.033 ms *
> >>> 14  2402:7800:10:1::12 [AS4826]  290.608 ms  292.440 ms  290.840 ms
> >>> 15  2402:7800:10:8::16 [AS4826]  228.836 ms  229.406 ms  231.379 ms
> >>> 16  2001:dd8:8:38::2 [AS4608]  233.803 ms  231.332 ms  233.572 ms
> >>> 17  2001:dd8:f::1 [AS4608]  231.822 ms  231.137 ms  232.772 ms
> >>>
> >>> Oh my.. I'm betting that's a lot more than 100 miles away :)
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Lee
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Nnagain mailing list
> >>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nnagain mailing list
> > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain



-- 
https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/2024_predictions/
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

Re: [NNagain] Geoff Huston's panel

[Sebastian Moeller]

> On 29. Feb 2024, at 18:26, Lee via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 9:12 AM Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote:
>> 
>> He is being incredibly provocative this week. It hurt to sit through this.
>> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxO73fH0VqM
> 
> Yes, he's provocative - but also entertaining.  And don't forget the audience:
> 
> ABOUT APRICOT
> 
> Representing Asia Pacific's largest international Internet conference,
> Asia Pacific Regional Internet Conference on Operational Technologies
> (APRICOT) draws many of the world's best Internet engineers,
> operators, researchers, service providers, users and policy
> communities from over 50 countries to teach, present, and do their own
> human networking.
> 
> His last slide deck seemed to be a call to arms.  He's near the end of
> his career, so for all the Internet engineers, etc.  I saw it as a
> "here's where we're going.  Do you want to contribute to this trend or
> take the Internet in a different direction?"
> 
> For example, after talking about CDNs and how most content is now
> local he brings up the bit about if 10% of your traffic costs you 90%
> of your carriage costs, if I was a rational provider, I would say to
> all those customers who need that 10% of the traffic go find someone
> else. I'm not going to do it.  Don't forget, this is a deregulated
> world - you can do that.  There is no universal obligation to carry
> default.
> 
> Does network neutrality require an ISP to connect you to the Internet
> at large?

At least the EU sees it that way:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32015R2120
An internet access service provides access to the internet, and in principle to all the end-points thereof, irrespective of the network technology and terminal equipment used by end-users. However, for reasons outside the control of providers of internet access services, certain end points of the internet may not always be accessible. Therefore, such providers should be deemed to have complied with their obligations related to the provision of an internet access service within the meaning of this Regulation when that service provides connectivity to virtually all end points of the internet. Providers of internet access services should therefore not restrict connectivity to any accessible end-points of the internet.

So you need to at least try... not sure about other jurisdictions.


>  Or do they get to drop the "expensive" traffic that
> requires connecting to a transit provider (or however they do it now
> to connect to the global Internet).
> 
> I was a bit dubious about the assertion that most traffic stays within
> the AS but surprise, surprise, surprise (most people here are old
> enough to remember Gomer Pyle.. right?).. youtube content is in the
> Verizon network.  Start wireshark, get the IP address of the youtube
> server and
> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:803:f00::e
> traceroute to 2600:803:f00::e (2600:803:f00::e), 30 hops max, 72 byte packets
>  <.. snip ..>
> 3  2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701]  33.323 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324
> [AS701]  2.542 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701]  33.315 ms
> 4  * * *
> 5  2600:803:6af::6 [AS701]  3.843 ms  3.838 ms  3.834 ms
> 6  2600:803:f00::e [AS701]  2.911 ms  2.216 ms  2.472 ms
> 
> Do the same for Netflix and I get three [??] different ASs:
> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617
> traceroute to 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617
> (2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617), 30 hops max, 72 byte
> packets
>  <.. snip ..>
> 5  2600:803:9af::82 [AS701]  8.048 ms 2600:803:9af::5a [AS701]  8.297
> ms 2600:803:2::5a [AS701]  8.294 ms
> 6  * 2620:107:4000:c5c0::f3fd:f [*]  2.846 ms
> 2620:107:4000:c5c1::f3fd:20 [*]  2.810 ms
> 7  2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d5b1 [*]  8.148 ms
> 2620:107:4000:cfff::f203:54b1 [*]  5.289 ms
> 2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d4b1 [*]  4.300 ms
> 8  2620:107:4000:a793::f000:3863 [*]  4.865 ms
> 2620:107:4000:a610::f000:2403 [*]  5.245 ms
> 2620:107:4000:acd3::f000:e060 [*]  5.201 ms
> 9  * * *
> 10  2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509]  4.881
> ms  4.864 ms  4.848 ms
> 11  2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509]  6.351
> ms  6.075 ms  5.935 ms
> 
> Does it violate network neutrality that youtube content takes the
> "fast lane" getting to me?
> 
> and just for chuckles..
> $ dig 2024.apricot.net aaaa +short
> 2001:dd8:f::1
> 
> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2001:dd8:f::1
> traceroute to 2001:dd8:f::1 (2001:dd8:f::1), 30 hops max, 72 byte packets
>  <.. snip ..>
> 3  2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701]  27.390 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326
> [AS701]  5.711 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701]  27.384 ms
> 4  * * *
> 5  * * 2001:2035:0:bb3::1 [AS1299]  7.235 ms
> 6  2001:2034:1:73::1 [AS1299]  7.763 ms  6.033 ms  5.996 ms
> 7  2001:2034:1:b7::1 [AS1299]  11.530 ms 2001:2034:1:b8::1 [AS1299]
> 10.704 ms *
> 8  * * *
> 9  2001:2000:3080:230d::2 [AS1299]  72.609 ms  72.594 ms  73.096 ms
> 10  * * *
> 11  * * *
> 12  * * *
> 13  * 2402:7800:10::2 [AS4826]  289.033 ms *
> 14  2402:7800:10:1::12 [AS4826]  290.608 ms  292.440 ms  290.840 ms
> 15  2402:7800:10:8::16 [AS4826]  228.836 ms  229.406 ms  231.379 ms
> 16  2001:dd8:8:38::2 [AS4608]  233.803 ms  231.332 ms  233.572 ms
> 17  2001:dd8:f::1 [AS4608]  231.822 ms  231.137 ms  232.772 ms
> 
> Oh my.. I'm betting that's a lot more than 100 miles away :)

On a direct fiber path these 231ms of RTT would allow for ~231*100 = 23100 Km or more than half around the earth...
But given how weird routing can get these 23Mm might end up just next door... (for a time the Swiss ISP Init7 had some european traffc go via Ashburn VA, to make a point)

Regards
	Sebastian

> 
> Regards,
> Lee
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