From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pj1-x1035.google.com (mail-pj1-x1035.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1035]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEA7D3B29D for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 11:32:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1035.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2800bb246ceso715668a91.1 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 08:32:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698420761; x=1699025561; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=3o5Qa94139d7RLYXu9h11JPhlEBhbJWdEAIOYLq9gmM=; b=maoMWI+75A9aJLIH0eVwWER5dA39th846bpo6xrZpbWG7w8LIRi7ywKyU+W/fFQXsJ xDpyl1EzeAN/UqTXeZjJwe87IPwSYK0a8bTx3enK2KUhWeelXkwdSAAfCEqGuLdoXLmX b2Eg/RaDaoDuQWyIUvHGB+AR56I8R311zm+ucnHz8fMZOs8p3mt4C/S/uFj1dO4/6Kd+ EohdDT4LaoB4Q+G8VlOvxCuE8j1ZfEYVVK4Ng5cPJDr5lxjeaQ2ViqzRY+VKdsRug2sH zAjmzT74MGvzTl7hh3RSa4mScbQU6g/jbhpVfCLM9rcsa9yQOxMhar7GmuFkNaIbwmF+ Uv6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698420761; x=1699025561; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=3o5Qa94139d7RLYXu9h11JPhlEBhbJWdEAIOYLq9gmM=; b=GLwOScSxraZND95mCPcT4mOMDOI2BdJmlvjEiT8zH0FSIuohAV10LkmliZxjqr0i3T uFL31+AOzM8/Gf2gbtBUN/2nEqk9DAr79wcaAUWNSeO8mIp0Tk/0o9eES+jEiVlsuFqy lUoveJ/q/dkJjnLziDaH5gvAEV22KTpaAEGmmFuCFFT0YKHux01Dh8t2hI9KTKYBGC4b OtKjf0jduDQeQbAnU4XqZcX7ZBoPZfpj+6XFJm/7DglHN/S7VZYqckcpmBVE70y88Xir R4mFcOleCLKVa/PwcT9chGzQdwzAHL81/vPhoYyg8uVj70bhwu4p9w+kUh97b6hSyAov kAYw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwW3wec9v2vKTVK/5fcWBEa70j3xyGivJOgeR/f6KIemCfkFA54 0noixkAvURjWHsVANUZzzR+k4gW9PUqQshOxaeNPGfNqNH8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHgFW3JdsEGg4xDbekbh8BO3IPyZdaE6oqCTTCBpnKOVm4Evzp97IphG2a31QA7BpCLEQ1GipgS/ugb5RZg5M4= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:8546:b0:27d:54b9:c3c5 with SMTP id a6-20020a17090a854600b0027d54b9c3c5mr3096637pjw.17.1698420760392; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 08:32:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 08:32:27 -0700 Message-ID: To: Nathan Simington Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [NNagain] RFC: Public Communications on Tech Infrastructure X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 15:32:41 -0000 2 items: 1 - nathan's email ended up in my spam folder, and if david had not replied I would not have seen even part of it. I had to search on a key phrase "Branching from Dave's thread" to find it (A search for "nnagain nathan" did not), and Google's filter described it as "this email looks dangerous click here if you recognise the sender"... where me I was delighted and *amazed* to see what he wrote. I imagine he hit 90% of everyone's spam folders? Can some people check? I was also on a 24hr amtrak train to seattle with no connectivity, meeting people, & playing music, and loving it. More on that later. Stopping here overnight 'cause this californian did NOT pack clothes suitable for my talk in canada! A quick note as to who is worth talking to about the present and future of the internet might be this list: https://www.internethalloffame.org/inductees/ - most of 'em still answer their email, when they get it. More later. Thx for dropping in Nathan! There's lots to talk about! On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:27=E2=80=AFAM Nathan Simington wrote: > > Branching from Dave's thread because I don't want to get into the politic= s, but I would like to very strongly endorse Dave's remarks about how the i= ncredible accomplishments of network engineers are totally unacknowledged a= nd misunderstood (e.g., note the public policy emphasis on line speed over = all else.) As such, I'd like to solicit the members of this list to suggest= some of the greatest accomplishments in network engineering that you've ne= ver seen properly acknowledged or appreciated. I'd like to promote and disc= uss them in speeches and papers to help get more sunlight on them. > > 0. Let's get network engineering some applause, please! > Both recent and historical accomplishments are welcome. I just want to he= lp get more people thinking about what a difference network engineering has= made to everyone's lives! All technologies, personalities and accomplishme= nts welcome! > > Beyond this specific thing, in terms of public discourse, I'd love to get= more opinions about how to communicate to the public about the tech underp= innings of the world we live in now, and I'd love comments on how to discus= s and promote any of these topics: > > 1. Infrastructure advances > It would generally do a lot of good if the public were to think of "tech"= less as purely the consumer-facing side and more in terms of fundamental a= rchitecture and infrastructure. For example, there's really no point talkin= g about "AI" in the public-facing aspect of end-user LLM experiences withou= t first looking at how the cost of compute and transit has gone through the= floor compared to 15 years ago or so. I can't even disentangle all the dri= vers, but they must include at least: > > New uses for GPUs driving advances and slashing prices in GPU tech > Vast advances in back-end cloud (to pick one company, Sawzall/Lingo/GFS/C= olossus plus associated datacenters is almost invisible to the public, and = I have no idea what's powering Chinese AI back-ends) > Nuts-and-bolts development in ML/data science that are eroding the fuzzy = boundary between ML done as a planned, discrete query by an expert over a s= mall, curated dataset and ML as a quasi-autonomous system not requiring exp= ert queries, given authority over physical devices, doing its own ingestion= , etc -- "a sufficiently large difference in quantity is itself a differenc= e in quality" > > This stuff is particularly worth asking about because we are now at least= 30 years into what I think of as "pervasive networked personal computing,"= now in wireless and appified form, and I think the public experiences this= as just advances that "happen by themselves" in the ordinary course withou= t seeing the jags in the step functions underwriting the apparent smooth cu= rve of progress. > > 2. Security in real-world systems > Getting hacked used to mean losing data, having devices bricked, maybe ge= tting co-opted into a botnet, etc. Now it's a lot scarier, because we are i= ncreasingly surrounded by always-on, always-connected devices whose securit= y infrastructure is a black box and which may be trusted with controlling p= hysical equipment. It's bad enough if your household appliances are phoning= home (where?) with your credit card number. It's a whole new level of scar= y if there are possible APTs in the power grid and whoever manufactured the= IOT modem in a transformer is about 8 degrees of separation from the grid = operators. Even if there's no malice intended, modern grid balancing is a n= ew level of challenging because you may have multiple sources of generation= with immense moment-by-moment fluctuations in inbound generation, etc., an= d that's just one category, leaving groceries, ports, financial markets, bu= ilding security, whatever replaces positive train control (PTC) down the ro= ad, vehicular autonomy, industrial operations, etc. to one side... > > Panic reactions are one thing, but it would be more productive for the pu= blic to think about what their expectations are for how to react to these n= ew capabilities and challenges and then demand that the policy sector cashe= s this out into new standards by consulting with technologists. I would the= refore love advice on what you think the public needs to know. Maybe some k= ind of public forum that could get press or a white paper that could get wr= itten up in an op-ed? > > On that note, in addition to (or instead of) commenting on this posting, = please consider commenting on the US Cyber Trust Mark proceeding now open a= t the FCC (comments close November 10th, commenting link here: https://www.= fcc.gov/ecfs/search/docket-detail/23-239). If you'd like to talk about this= off-list, please drop me a line at NS@fcc.gov. I'll let you know in advanc= e if anything you want to say requires you to file an "ex parte" statement = so that you don't have to worry about going on the record unintentionally. = This is a fantastic opportunity for the network engineering and computer se= curity communities to air their concerns in a federal forum in a way that m= ay bind the federal government going forward. > > 3. The future isn't evenly distributed > Talking to a friend who does industrial devops reminded me of this fantas= tic postmortem on healthcare.gov's rollout: https://lobste.rs/s/igt4ez/10_y= ear_anniversary_healthcare_gov. Obviously I don't need to tell the career p= rofessionals this, but tech advances don't necessarily propagate, and if th= ey do, it may be at radically different rates between different countries, = companies, sectors... (If I needed a reminder of this, I recently had to up= load DICOM files to a hospital using a terrible Java applet that was obviou= sly written so long ago that it only wanted to upload from CDs, i.e., at a = time when you wouldn't have spent hard disk space on DICOMs. I eventually m= anaged to "persuade" it that a flash drive was a CD.) > > This ties into points 1 and especially 2, because if we want the full soc= ial benefits of all the advances modern engineering has accomplished, we ne= ed to get people in "nontraditional" sectors thinking about the benefits of= the communications and controls capabilities that are now on the table. Ev= eryone should be asking why we aren't doing ML to reduce the cost and energ= y consumption for making breakfast cereal, totally pedestrian stuff like th= at; if the answer is juice isn't worth the squeeze, that fine, but that's g= oing to run on a delay because, as the healthcare.gov example shows, high-v= alue new practices may be invisible to a sector that would definitely benef= it from them. > > Sorry for the very lengthy post, and as they say on the artist formerly k= nown as Twitter, "my DMs are open." And thanks for everything you all do! > > All the best-- > Nathan > > On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 3:22=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote: >> >> On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 11:21=E2=80=AFAM the keyboard of geoff goodfello= w via >> Nnagain wrote: >> > >> > =E2=9E=94=E2=9E=94https://twitter.com/BrendanCarrFCC/status/1716558844= 384379163 >> >> Leaving aside the rhetoric, I believe the majority of these claims on >> this part of his post: >> >> https://twitter.com/BrendanCarrFCC/status/1716884139226329512 >> >> to be true. Any one question this? >> >> I do wish that he showed upload speeds, and latency under load, and, >> acknowledged some mistakes, at least, and did not claim perfect >> success. Also individual states had stepped up to institute their own >> rules, and I would love to see a comparison of those stats vs those >> that didn=C2=B4t. >> >> The COVID thing I am most fiercely proud of, as an engineer, is we >> took an internet only capable of postage stamp 5 frame per sec[1] >> videoconferencing to something that the world, as a whole, relied on >> to keep civilization running only 7 years later, in the face of >> terrible odds, lights out environments, scarce equipment supplies, and >> illness. ISPs big and small helped too - Their people climbed towers, >> produced better code, rerouted networks, and stayed up late fighting >> off DDOSes. People at home shared their wifi and knowledge of how to >> make fiddly things on the net work well, over the internet - >> >> Nobody handed out medals for keeping the internet running, I do not >> remember a single statement of praise for what we did over that >> terrible time. No one ever looks up after a productive day after a >> zillion productive clicks and says (for one example) "Thank you Paul >> Vixie and Mokapetris for inventing DNS and Evan Hunt(bind) and Simon >> Kelly(dnsmasq) for shipping dns servers for free that only get it >> wrong once in a while, and then recover so fast you don=C2=B4t notice" - >> there are just endless complaints from those for whom it is not >> working *right now* the way they expect. >> >> There are no nobel prizes for networking. But the scientists, >> engineers, sysadmins and SREs kept improving things, and are keeping >> civilization running. It is kind of a cause for me - I get very irked >> at both sides whining when if only they could walk a mile in a >> neteng=C2=B4s shoes. I get respect from my neighbors at least, sometimes >> asked to fix a laptop or set up a router... and I still share my wifi. >> >> If there was just some way to separate out the ire about other aspects >> of how the internet is going south (which I certainly share), and >> somehow put respect for those in the trenches that work on keeping the >> Net running, back in the public conversation, I would really love to >> hear it. >> >> [1] Really great talk on networking by Van Jacobson in 2012, both >> useful for its content, and the kind of quality we could only achieve >> then: https://archive.org/details/video1_20191129 >> >> > -- >> > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com >> > living as The Truth is True >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Nnagain mailing list >> > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >> >> >> >> -- >> Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.= html >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos >> _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > > > -- > Nathan Simington > cell: 305-793-6899 --=20 Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.htm= l Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos