From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pg1-x530.google.com (mail-pg1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0D153CB37 for ; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 18:47:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-pg1-x530.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-5c2066accc5so1208064a12.3 for ; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 15:47:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1700437631; x=1701042431; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=76ODbSkpAff8UDjyuj06sRWO3CpCcXVj3fMAGRs5+XY=; b=FxBH6vuFMd2fGQSZ0/zBYYOQ+WZTCJYKFM29QBl8glOIHwgzd+ISJIMpixoPejeMjD WFi4+jxC5IRexIIy6LkZC56SdkgLV9h+ldr4ZNBuEv11FlUbzYNtjBEyzz4I79Yk+JZu HizQVTylYD57reKm9KG17FNj1dx8lB2/bI01N9qjb8wh1EaAi2c5xvW+TBOfyAH3+2mY mnIkc832T0cU0Q1z67X3VsQfkxkkcNlhgpXQHe1XXv/WUatVtfVn9e/j7Hnb8RDpfLRx 932C+ukn/f/uySuS6huQSmsX2KYh/1Scb5VS9haUtmr9hqJIuI5UmOwzRl4tjky0hDbW ZbNA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1700437631; x=1701042431; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=76ODbSkpAff8UDjyuj06sRWO3CpCcXVj3fMAGRs5+XY=; b=Kha+feqb7n0qdkaY4QYbWdgwE2PR3pF0LupnEXjeBbbnuaxozRSeJTjyKFK9JkatuA UJfJZmvSLk9xOexjBCtH1whPy4fb5+G/gzNwhYMcbF5Gkktb55FFgUbBJobOYJfKEZjJ X94X1Uyg1QLUVul28wDW7krZNfxBZvxUqT0nI0pYHy/IuavjnqdVL/NVpCzXglk2Mikl Woabcg90X7eHuA8YrAHVAk0SDDYTHuptdbipSeLMvGbxbyUuZjhVaiy5YQZbQMFVXelH B40Tn599RdHAl60QTQsayk+EIRNws6YrN2imhb9nv+EcxVft+AI2Wl7VSOIX/wC0YEIU NXkQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzfAnelMos1PCzjgAA+2HEttGyxjfaGwrxe7n2Bx7N9KBq2jQhG lLgtLDVB0daiv+CI096F++IKrGv60Lo8HmugewM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a20:2324:b0:187:27d3:1573 with SMTP id n36-20020a056a20232400b0018727d31573mt2991466pzc.22.1700437631547; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 15:47:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6dc14d839e50972f55b9a8b7285739d4@rjmcmahon.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2023 18:46:59 -0500 Message-ID: Cc: rjmcmahon , =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspect?= =?UTF-8?Q?s_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [NNagain] water infrastructure and much more X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2023 23:47:13 -0000 Removing debbie from the thread, per her request. I note that I rather like the ability to comment freely on someones work, and occasionally have them listen, constructively. On Sun, Nov 19, 2023 at 6:35=E2=80=AFPM Debbie Chachra = wrote: > > I was added to this thread without my consent and I do not wish to be par= t of this discussion. Please remove my email address. > > .dc. > > -- > > Debbie Chachra, PhD > > (she/they) > > > How Infrastructure Works [US/UK] > > > > Professor of Engineering > > www.olin.edu > > > > > ________________________________ > From: rjmcmahon > Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2023 5:54 PM > To: Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the technical aspects hea= rd this time! > Cc: Dave Taht ; Debbie Chachra > Subject: Re: [NNagain] water infrastructure and much more > > [FROM AN EXTERNAL SENDER] > > The initial phase of potable water in Boston wasn't because of germ > theory but rather about the temperance movement. Also, water > infrastructure was used to support fire departments in cities in the US. > Our cities tended to experience a lot of conflagrations. Rich people had > access to piped water infrastructure way ahead of poor people in Boston > for sure. It was a doctor who led Boston to provide universal access to > clean, potable water in the name of public health. There are a lot of > books written by trained historians on this - no need to for us to > guess. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperance_movement#:~:text=3DPeople%20were= %20instructed%20to%20only,had%20gained%201.5%20million%20members. > > Teetotalism (1830s) > See also: Blue ribbon badge > As a response to rising social problems in urbanized areas, a stricter > form of temperance emerged called teetotalism, which promoted the > complete abstinence from alcoholic beverages, this time including wine > and beer, not just ardent spirits. The term teetotaler came from the > capital "T"s that were written next to the names of people who pledged > complete abstinence from alcohol. People were instructed to only drink > pure water and the teetotalists were known as the "pure-water army". In > the US, the American Temperance Union advocated total abstinence from > distilled and fermented liquors. By 1835, they had gained 1.5 million > members. > > Bob > > I have not had much time to write anything long form, but I enjoy > > reading long, thoughtful pieces on Sundays, and this one might > > ultimately yield analogies for internet infrastructure also. > > > > https://comment.org/care-at-scale/ > > > > "In the late nineteenth century, the wealthy taxpayers of Boston were > > convinced to build out water and sewage systems by a straightforward > > logic: every person in the city, rich or poor, needed clean water to > > drink every day. Without it, they would be at risk of contracting > > water-borne diseases like cholera. And with so many people in > > proximity, wealth alone couldn=E2=80=99t provide protection from contag= ious > > disease." > > > > While otherwise a wonderful read - go read it!! - > > > > Me being me, I disagree that "the wealthy taxpayers of boston > > recognized the need for common water infrastructure" because the germ > > theory of disease was not well accepted, and the organism behind the > > epidemic was first described in 1854 and not again until 1884. I > > imagine there was great - AGW-esq - sturm und drang - and attempts to > > shift the blame for cholera to merely "being poor", or "foreign", or > > "the will of the gods", or rats - and attempts to shift the costs > > onto various other parties before safer water distribution systems > > were built, but! I freely admit, I have not done the research into the > > controversies that IMHO, must have existed back then. I think that > > practical problems, like enough city water in the first place to > > support the population density therein, also were a factor. > > > > The need for sound water and septic systems was recognized by many > > cities two millenia prior to this... and not by many others. I > > remember when the Delaware river and Boston Harbor were sewers, and > > have lived many places around the world where that was still the case > > for many rivers. > > > > From some history (that I already knew) see this: > > > > https://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/snow/firstdiscoveredcholera.html > > > > (It is remarkable how many expired SSL certificates there are in the > > world, also.) > > > > The Boston river caught fire many times before 1969, and until then, > > no-body cared: > > > > https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/cuyahoga-river-caught-fire-least= -dozen-times-no-one-cared-until-1969-180972444/ --=20 :( My old R&D campus is up for sale: https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos