From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pj1-x1029.google.com (mail-pj1-x1029.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1029]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09D343B2A4 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 20:37:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1029.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-27d0acd0903so2561741a91.1 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 17:37:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698107832; x=1698712632; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=LQoTwMmmCdgUJSpa9tkBG7h5dETla5/yRoLLx8LUJzM=; b=YJtBXdxJNVj9l2iqKFx48jJ3XzMr4LYoEhXAXYJiPEysIddpQFwWp87GWyweSDyrAC rIW4mWJ5fCHPL1PqVzoOLhwKdNODkqs3tLdGKjPXPW1Q0UPfTSaoq8u3kymhSixadYxB MG5gcHPwjIYalanrgLL6F1JDTSLj+tuFrFBDLz9QZGU/sOAAfCcbeHf9EmmpyaWoGOFo kh8qpv+x4+v29pGvzOnW4JsKLKzbMc5+10IGEu/J7jVJSW91PdB1eQHsuxR4FG20LAVn +8wmdICOKb83Bdj8EFoEYi5RoX445ay/VUJtiqxVuvWQQt9zAu04qrZcEukkqoH7CpMJ 77Xw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698107832; x=1698712632; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=LQoTwMmmCdgUJSpa9tkBG7h5dETla5/yRoLLx8LUJzM=; b=PR181OEvVivsDDilMI62QKeUVXEjHiqUAJZEtaCHgQFguY7s5bwceIG0zj29mOmk5E Rdql/eFoQLaD++gwc/NUZp/lIh3+RIqK86TxTgiwPErw87XMSiuHXvXqDlVKG3ygRP71 2qewAVwRYw56RxfeoxLaTKGy2s8sI00Tr0hE2FAOdXdna8q32J/RkJf6NXHAX/BHD0dQ kL1VO73J3CC1NyGYZqYWBBgYceWC1GHqqU0BxPkqoD/JJ6sMgwNjv6/H8kH+SrNV8ekc 9Ha3ZXZ0apewLvMfSJF4OxnwxQ6qB+/SncBUUvaGQkzX5VOtyH1/MGBiiBTJcpV/Luim vgMw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yybmpklp/63eXhjzQPM4Pc4EN9FNVPXPY0gng12YqF5rYTBpZU8 HaPCs18W5tBxqUYHS1a66OYGQYuZqI54MfVA0llMuEYLGM0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHNp9x6TLWmyZhBlKTPh9R8Iw3jjGCyMljnKoU3ZKTIcyLdCmqa0LFhU94vTyiKz+3JSPp1jc4rPb7iEVPwA28= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:8ce:b0:27d:4d6d:8379 with SMTP id ds14-20020a17090b08ce00b0027d4d6d8379mr7712171pjb.48.1698107831733; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 17:37:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 17:36:59 -0700 Message-ID: To: thejoff@mail.com, =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspect?= =?UTF-8?Q?s_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [NNagain] upgrading old routers to modern, secure FOSS X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 00:37:13 -0000 On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 10:44=E2=80=AFAM le berger des photons via Nnagain wrote: > > you've convinced me to go see libre qos. thanks. Thank you, but that was not my intent. I was actually trying to course correct the growing QoE industry and their ISP customers to be measuring and deploying the right things at the routers themselves, and keep up to date with events. I had been patiently trying to find folk with clue on this otherwise excellent WISP talk thread: https://www.facebook.com/groups/wisptalk/permalink/2234396776891325/ (it is a really great group of network operators, btw) over the week.. And it was really great, as by the end of it we had established that fq_codel was a key part of everyone=C2=B4s (ubnt, bequant/cambium, preseem, LibreQos=C2=B4s "secret sauce") and I had a chance to communicate that we had fixed a fairly large bug^H^H^H misfeature in codel in 2018 in CAKE and did not know who to tell about it. I have a long list of vendors that have listed fq_codel or CAKE as part of their products now, that I reached out to some effect over the past few years, getting mikrotik to backport some stuff in particular to their 5.7 kernel release from 5.15. Sometimes tho I get back the blithe dismissal and I have to play my theme song to recover. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DqGzUTrnqEDA It bothers me to know that for the next 15 years, that bug will be still shipping in billions of "new" products, leveraging old kernels, that people will use. Poor Van Jacobson had identified many problems with his 90s RED idea, took 16 years to find a fix, and is still waiting for even one big vendor to make it available in silicon. And so it goes. I am getting better at just accepting things as they are and trying just to fix what I can. Another song... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DyMj-icLHiw4 > > On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 7:04=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote: >> >> I loved that this guy and his ISP burned a couple weeks learning how >> to build openwrt, built something exactly to the need, *had it work >> the first time* and are in progress to update in place 200+ routers to >> better router software, that just works, with videoconferencing, IPv6 >> support, and OTA functionality. No need for a truck roll, and while >> the available bandwidth deep in these mountains in Mexico is meager, >> it is now enough for most purposes. >> >> https://blog.nafiux.com/posts/cnpilot_r190w_openwrt_bufferbloat_fqcodel_= cake/ >> >> I have no idea how many of this model routers were sold or are still >> deployed (?), but the modest up front cost of this sort of development >> dwarves that of deployment. Ongoing maintenance is a problem, but at >> least they are in a position now to rapidly respond to CVEs and other >> problems when they happen, having "seized control of the methods of >> computation" again. >> >> OpenWrt is known to run on 1700 different models, already, (with easy >> ports to obscure ones like this box) - going back over a decade in >> some cases. >> >> Another favorite story of mine was the ISP in New Zealand that >> deployed LibreQos and had all their support calls (from gamers and >> videoconferencers) cease overnight. The support tech, formerly drowned >> in angst from the users, set to work automating an reflashing 600 old >> agw routers they had "retired" on the shelf, and then distributing >> them to customers as extenders because the wifi finally worked right >> with the fq_codel stuff now in that release. >> >> I feel like I am tooting my own horn here a bit too much, but solving >> the right problems like MTTR, MTBF, bufferbloat, and taking back >> control of your software infrastructure while being able to customize >> it for purpose, and turning what otherwise would be ewaste into >> something that will last a decade more, is my inner "green", my inner >> stewart brand. >> >> Compare that to so many others being marketed to, to death, that buy >> the latest (and often inferior) thing, every few months, perpetually >> fooled by promises that do not pay off in the field, and often, really >> lousy MTBF. Good embedded software takes many years to develop, say, >> oh, 7, while the hardware cycle is closer to 2, nowadays, and requires >> many eyeballs to fully debug and get to lots of 9s of reliability. >> >> Back when I was even more radical about good, open, embedded, software >> than now, I used to say: "Friends don't let friends run factory >> firmware.". I do wish somehow the long term maintence costs of >> hardware with a decade plus service lifetime would be adaquately >> covered. Insurance? by law? a formal setaside from the purchase price? >> Otherwise we run the risk of turning the world's internet into a giant >> toxic waste dump that will require Superfund levels of cleanup, one >> day, and ever more contributions to trillions of dollars of fraud, and >> persistent actors having first broken down the front door, perpetually >> on the inside, wreaking more havoc. Somehow preventing that mess, up >> front, seems cheaper. >> >> Take this string of vulns: >> https://www.google.com/search?q=3Dcisco+router+vulnerability >> >> (try that search string with *any* manufacturer - juniper, netgear, tpli= nk, >> >> There is a new vuln going around about some very old software in a >> cisco mx series which is ancient and yet 100k+ are vulnerable - (I >> worked on this while at montavista in the early 00s!) - abandonware, >> toxic waste... >> >> Anyway, in Mexico at least, 200+ routers are going to be a lot better, >> through the actions of all that contribute to linux, openwrt, and one >> smart and caring engineer. >> >> -- >> Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.= html >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos >> _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain --=20 Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.htm= l Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos