From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x32e.google.com (mail-wm1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84AB93CB37 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2024 10:35:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-41269c801eeso4300815e9.2 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2024 07:35:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1708356946; x=1708961746; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=ZehwTutWxbCidwh/6mnb5AiNRujljd7CkumHbFoSRdg=; b=kWIjkTXxmVuazYTrf5F3OueV8V6FGa4dknxmQI9BpTchUR55hwyKpA7Dh/ZmQQCGkY 2607U+0kP/MINIo4w6hjyDTpXFDjtTu/hxpdmgiH7okdKh3IVuhEX0izaBgn3+l8roZN nUjyEZFp0uWDIfzsD9pVTnXH0XCRxgJirhOuatIH2z98in5is4JDMV5ZHmcErH3RfYdU s4n3Q1Pwqrk2BCSqBZfxYs6L0cx1eKHOjWiBUEaGmvEpswT/Y04rrl65zlWZNwe+PCxW zMS3XicbCblgo63H3MEyqEjk1PEHEEZ4PRPztvIdlP0TIp/NjGC24aM56toTMwHHK8r8 jWZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1708356946; x=1708961746; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=ZehwTutWxbCidwh/6mnb5AiNRujljd7CkumHbFoSRdg=; b=FpCCKUXtriJuXQy2kK5QGp6YXq38vtyRYeZ2cxL5RaR4rqiILopOvIO7Te1Qj3O0dP yrgoy9V4jyL/pCwWT2TrClNzu6hFbAiuW/5WeaRo1CLhOp5nA/aGzuxhIs5qeR4fCASC b+N3/gAWBtY12hqzgvx8mJWQv6jlIq4z8Is40KrPN/sy736lFYq3t2bwZU+QvtoTgWN4 BjDAROoFIj1EQJfZA7HcGoK1BhVuCtL2BSBeuCnPHfrYFnPzvFCgU+CG1T66kjYJY0xC 0JhkwL8IjaN041Xoaa3eQ+Wc9VM0tT1MDCSI2DhxSwSpN4I0DQtAKy/fYxHERdZhhCCW ElEQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxPnmz7S0KStNo5Bq741oOUhjkvfzyvGREjs1/7FzGdB/ZO4wHp wxXgrD//aeFYpyR2bWKkswT6sjsNMy2TFcRPUoAY2NYMcTs/Fbc3UXecFxcyK6wbJ0JMKLS3lTw IhuAcaJ/Tw4H/Zj/YlE5ucA1mMn6ULvF3auA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGcmmwdL4HAakGwac9PYj5Z2pE6CUiSljjp1/vbW4KMeyzrFNwmXpZMUAWtdopH/0HGjzI+KAsJfw1/sfTJa2A= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:3108:b0:412:689a:864d with SMTP id g8-20020a05600c310800b00412689a864dmr1210497wmo.36.1708356946025; Mon, 19 Feb 2024 07:35:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5cba1bdb-4b27-5c3e-9dd6-7af4a1edc1d0@swm.pp.se> In-Reply-To: <5cba1bdb-4b27-5c3e-9dd6-7af4a1edc1d0@swm.pp.se> From: Dave Taht Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 10:35:33 -0500 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [NNagain] ip address exhaustion podcast X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 15:35:48 -0000 Dear Mike: I am going to flat out refuse to discuss the ultimate use of the 6% of the internet's "future" allocations here, today, in light of the other issues I raised in the podcast that I think are more important, that I hope people will take a timeout to think about. This tool, showing the mis-allocated ipv4 address map, is very enlightening, for the newer persons here: https://map.bgp.tools/ It is kind of similar to the FCC wireless spectrum map. I used to keep a copy of that on my wall with a tiny circle and arrow pointing at the paltry 2.4ghz allocation and all the great things we did with it. IP space is a similar problem. In that tool you can zoom in on tons of empty space, controlled by entities that do not care. I pushed hard during the runup to bead's challenge process to not only do speedtests but map the cybergeography and ipv6 available between ISPs, and to date, failed. I strongly agree that rather than pursuing the 240 option that more of these more well defined spaces be made available for public use. Somehow. ... As for more and more CGNAT vs ipv6, I am reminded of an analogy why direct addressing helps. My postal address in nicaragua, used to be 1 block contiguous east of hotel joxi, San Juan Del Sur Nicaragua Which is kind of analogous to how regular NAT works today. CGNAT is more like: go 22 miles west of Rivas, Nicaragua, on one of the 32000 roads (ports) if available Take a left turn at the main stop light go 3 blocks go south 1 block to Hotel Joxi (ask the desk if they have any ports available for NAT too) go east 1 block knock on the door to see if anyone is home deliver the packet On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 9:20=E2=80=AFAM Mikael Abrahamsson via Nnagain wrote: > > On Mon, 19 Feb 2024, Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote: > > > renting the allocations they own to their customers. (The 240/4 "for > > future use" problem is a relative distraction, honestly! but amazon's > > use of it *all* does irk me, as I had intended that space be used for > > all of humanity). Certainly by finally charging for their IPV4 > > The fact that it's now used internally in places, is yet another reason i= t > will never show up in the global routing table. > > Turning 240/4 into something usable on the wider Internet is a futile > fight. It's however good for internal use as IPv4 already often needs > translation boxes to talk to the global Internet (DFZ). So the work > already done on making end systems able to use 240/4 is fine, but it also > meant it's now used for internal things. So the fight should be to make i= t > into proper RFC1918 style addresses for internal use so everybody agrees > what's going on. > > -- > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain --=20 40 years of net history, a couple songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DD9RGX6QFm5E Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos