From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pj1-x102f.google.com (mail-pj1-x102f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF1353CB37 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2023 13:21:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102f.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-27cefb5ae1fso1903283a91.3 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:21:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1697304083; x=1697908883; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=+OmlY3CmC3dazA3jtxkRkLYgNTsTRIQBmmAgqLcbtQo=; b=bx4XwGS/9VO68FBjw7yVANjHnKSu4AFniEfXJzqT3Pkr9C5SdCZeZw4Wiz9AoKTwEo XqeV6NaF3KcRaGVp5zdOeqGPqBMe7Pax0Ndv0BFMMf5+E7wucnCb3EbhZd+7UBvfm1ta MRAQf3Rg91RG66cH/hRGybUUZtwO8IVgzOwnjd4h38at9cXATaziqJbVdyvnWCW7afmy LaxLEyyEsWDcyVBMFcOcy0WtgVK2IO68vIPxKrcOCeOgmPvki1u0EKl0WEwspa7gKvIz c9x30LPWq/kY4o0lait/WhBISnqdXoyaPQ4qW0fi7cl+0WXTH9YTzTX/pg4rgcZp641P rk/w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1697304083; x=1697908883; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=+OmlY3CmC3dazA3jtxkRkLYgNTsTRIQBmmAgqLcbtQo=; b=g9xEz+mcOA6V1WP7YCLIVW/3zmRKMEr76Te5zgU5YeGjSOtSspAuzgGXnfcz3J0CiE JZz9I6PDTQgfdZvOUVIrAIsjDdyQmm5O5QF1kZ7f+IbZKfcRKBj2Q80JWvI7IFRg+2Aw BJT8+I3ybT+QOAX1MxfUa6sjMHmhM0LHd/zhb46bdDK9OgsJt94jreBqasknpclKX2lR S3rLgbaU8RGp7d8UC9yu2tk7VbA4p06ZFa6sLHf/n/aVNc+mh7km9AyYEmsdi0l38cMY bGPsHcJUE5M0+7Ts1nStshRQhIdS2mYc0trJac76vRx1diOf9Teukly+gG6CB02kBB2k NLdA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yzs3X38h1jfJ2ETF7USKurpRj/bbZs/uKE8RFVyQw5Gp44IFeQs n4p9JeTFYVF4ao1/Azh7GIGYWGxTaSPS7Q/tPIL3h3hlYeE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEf2ZqmqGY+VCqM1QYxoFgWFY+hVqN9Vm+47j664Ipes71TCJ8gM2YUtmLKPxu8yJOAsPeuWUrTTPPV+G7h8Yk= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:1dd:b0:27d:10b1:5deb with SMTP id 29-20020a17090a01dd00b0027d10b15debmr8963035pjd.31.1697304083471; Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:21:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0ddfc07c8caa7acc35018f730edf7950@rjmcmahon.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:21:11 -0700 Message-ID: To: rjmcmahon Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [NNagain] some compelling rhetoric X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2023 17:21:24 -0000 On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 8:08=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht wro= te: > > I note that when I complement someone's rhetoric, I am often quite > honestly admiring of it, and yet being sarcastic about the uses to > subtly mislead. I am also hoping that with 186 people on the list, > that more will be inspired to thrash out truths and lies, > rationally... and come up with better rhetoric. I also was not criticising *your* points, but lacked time to say anything. > On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 1:43=E2=80=AFPM rjmcmahon wrote: > > > > Not sure of the goals with this, but it reads like misinformation and > > propaganda to me. The state of so-called "digital journalism" today is > > very sad. Hopefully, we'll find a way so quality journalism can rise to > > the top, created by journalists who get paid for publishing with > > integrity and aren't paid to produce propaganda (I know - wishful > > thinking - Elon Musk and all that.) > > > > History suggests we may have to wait awhile. Let's hope not. > > > > 1436 Gutenberg press invented > > 1517 Martin Luther posts his 95 Theses > > 1687 Newton's Principia is published > > > > https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs181/projects/2010-11/Journali= sm/index7f0d.html?page_id=3D16 > > > > The fact of the matter is that democracy requires informed citizens. To be pedantic, America is theoretically a democratic republic. In either case, an informed citizenry is rare, and the large lying models (LLMs) are not helping. I mentioned in an earlier thread that I had approved of the code of conduct trend, but was disturbed at the lack of ethics inherent in it. Engineers, unlike doctors, are not bound to do their best to not kill people, although most of us try pretty hard to not do so. There are some ethical standards for engineers, I wish more projects tried to apply them, instead of creating licenses like "do not do evil", and granting the occasional exception for them. Engineers also really need truths in order to do good engineering. Rounding off PI to 3 is not helpful. Journalists and scientists, are supposed to find the truth, but the former too frequently, just look for two sides to a story, to tell, and the latter, dither. I enjoyed Oppenheimer scaring the chief engineer on the eve of the Trinity test, saying there was a non-zero possibility of igniting the atmosphere! As for lawyers, I am too cynical to express how I often feel about far too many cases where the public interest is not served. In copyright law, in particular (which is the only branch of it I have ever touched), I wish we could at least have court appointed public defenders. Some days, like today, I wish I could find redress for establishing the few truths I understand deeply. What do you do when chatgpt thinks you died in 2020, bing thinks you are the fictional president of magaretha, and shades the truth so much on what is publicly available source code as it did below? I do not know what the legal catagory for misrepresenting reality is!??? https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7118969694987935744/ > > governing body can be expected to operate well without knowledge of the > > issues on which it is to rule, and rule by the people entails that the > > people should be informed. In a representative democracy, the role of > > the press is twofold: it both informs citizens and sets up a feedback > > loop between the government and voters. The press makes the actions of > > the government known to the public, and voters who disapprove of curren= t > > trends in policy can take corrective action in the next election. This was really good. Is this a quote? I have often longed for an anti-google, where one search result in 5 was a competing thesis, based on other facts. I like that twitter is doing "community notes", and also like the fact checking sites on the web (but who fact checks the fact checkers?) > > Without the press, the feedback loop is broken and the government is no > > longer accountable to the people. The press is therefore of the utmost > > importance in a representative democracy. > > > > Another, related, function of the press is to expose people to opinions > > contrary to their own. This function is perhaps the most valuable in th= e > > Internet age; while people can in theory get information about the > > actions of their government from online sources, it is all too easy to > > find opinions online that match one=E2=80=99s own. Informed decision-ma= king on > > the part of voters requires an awareness of multiple points of view, > > which is not likely to be obtained if voters bear the sole > > responsibility of seeking out information on relevant issues. The news > > media provide a forum for debates to take place, as well as moderating > > and curating the arguments presented by all sides. It is, of course, > > idealistic to suppose that media give equal, or even proportional, > > representation to all opinions, but the fact that many media outlets > > present themselves as nonpartisan sources of information makes them a > > better forum for debate than online sources such as blogs, which are > > typically maintained by one individual or a small group of people with > > similar opinions I am trying here to gather together reasonable people, of all trades, with differing opinions, but hopefully the same set of facts. > > Bob > > > https://www.freepress.net/blog/what-net-neutrality > > > > > > It also contains a link to the proposed NPRM. > > > > > > I am however, under the impression that 2019-2022 bandwidths increase= d > > > by a lot, coverage was extended to more folk, and cell phones > > > subsidiezed by ACP kept a lot of people connected. > > > > -- > Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.h= tml > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos -- Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.htm= l Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos