From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x331.google.com (mail-wm1-x331.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::331]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8FDA3CB37 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2024 08:39:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-wm1-x331.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-41241f64c6bso13211165e9.0 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2024 05:39:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1708609198; x=1709213998; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=QNkkX2BBzYKRd1+o3vJJT2SIw+ariDq+4doYt8YqZdE=; b=TFTzNIJC0xzNvRpZZe9t+M19fU1A9fK40WmHHag+KUlPoBH0UqGtmzK8KHMKsQHxj9 9y1UanqZ5oVGQqXxz0g8SNKlngc//ilPO1sGztbQoECcEcVmaiYZAkETdxAIuoROf9nQ 9JxoY9Sq+4EPbdH4udtxIPCfi9+eWscukqD/JwVSJbfyUkqJZSCmOM9ynoqbQdW2xWZB J8i8SF3RepAa4J1UNzBqIk992P/lXZiZqVJDwpyEzIYuWSB8BqnUMvnFYNZqb+b36rzL 6hga0sGqRxShhpie62ygLGceoRtWFwytLoKl4/j4M9mHx2Sym7gI3HHSLH1cWnUbt8ET 1Jmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1708609198; x=1709213998; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=QNkkX2BBzYKRd1+o3vJJT2SIw+ariDq+4doYt8YqZdE=; b=ZsaO39SpOITOtCQgypBGuiqmVWCR4U+ZAyAGxtC+5ePutKojgIX+8KTySb6q6NHL3S ubxTIbGDddYeP5PE1b+2NPCSETrTFknvkuno7er+ROqQm0jh3LOFls2g6VDGWd/AXPSi hJryp0u7ZwDBXiEuTz+BYtG9ELADSjw5DJuTjJppkIJPUhEZ6QK3WdLNC92zT37YBMp1 EOTnqpK+I+7rAjaKihqm1b8SO1E4f8BoBqtY7jHrFUJYUJ+Pysa/oiLUEka2Zf68hd/+ QzIhV9sKBeReotK+K9oGzYwmmdBCYe+lul7DeJLczBsx6wPHqcyFQrGmi3udVyXvv5yS Ogkw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxSx4OYItGRfCYSwveTA65028YjLxEwaJ7Go1/CMX8fspAoc00b XeQIlFvsCkhAmpQH9TeHQB5IX/ahRT0TE7Ysnt1vGt9y6VMPn/5mKtPFR4TFqqJnGvCGbWIDUKH LFdosZ2jq6HRKkIAQ8wS2XRqpWKsnpyuXy74= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHJJCduSghMfLnbM6GaAe4PjD7QtCCStluVlS3SG+RR6JUv6J3d/v8wz1xsIz89tRicI0C0YTe2TR9UzQ5DmJ8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:1d01:b0:412:65d0:fd66 with SMTP id l1-20020a05600c1d0100b0041265d0fd66mr8491849wms.1.1708609198181; Thu, 22 Feb 2024 05:39:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 08:39:45 -0500 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Cc: Brent Legg Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [NNagain] The Whys of the Wichita IXP Project X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 13:40:00 -0000 On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 8:02=E2=80=AFPM Brent Legg via Nnagain wrote: > > First, let me offer a public THANK YOU to Dave Taht for reaching out to u= s about the specifics of our Wichita IXP project, and for inviting me to jo= in this group. It=E2=80=99s been disheartening to see folks talk about us = & the project on public forums like LinkedIn without first engaging us in c= onversation to learn the specifics of what we=E2=80=99re actually doing. I= =E2=80=99d like to think that those who have been disparaging have only don= e so because they don=E2=80=99t understand what we=E2=80=99re trying to ach= ieve. I was wildly enthusiastic to see what you were proposing appear in the press. It was a breath of potentially fresh air in an otherwise depressing post RDOF, post BEAD environment where it seemed like the only metrics were speedtests and passings. I try very hard to get people of wildly disparate backgrounds to converse, and escape the bubbles they are in. I have tried to gather together on this old-fashioned email *discussion* list both technologists and policy-makers to clear the air in ways that cannot be encapsulated in 240 characters. These two groups (a lot of old internet experts here) have not been communicating very well of late, ironically, over the best communication medium ever invented. It is sad that email lists have so been in decline the past 20+ years, overwhelmed by marketing and spam, as an email address is the only universal identifier we have for so many other transactions. The advantage of a discussion list, over all the faddy technologies, are: you retain a copy of what you said, everyone else does also, and the internet at least used to make it searchable into the far future. Remembering that I had a dispute or discussion with @randomperson and finding them again via the technology-of-the-day (g+ anyone?, slack? disquis? hackernews?) is really hard otherwise, and I do hope that email makes a comeback. But someones need to start maintaining it better. > > > To begin, I think there is confusion in the terminology being used. When= we say =E2=80=9CIXP,=E2=80=9D we mean the facility (building, venue) where= interconnection & peering occurs. The =E2=80=9CIX=E2=80=9D is the etherne= t switch in the building. When someone says an IXP can be built for $8k, t= hat=E2=80=99s apples-to-oranges with what we=E2=80=99re doing. Yes, a swit= ch can be procured for $8k. But where does it go? What if there is no saf= e, secure, neutral place for it to go? Then such a place must be built. T= hat=E2=80=99s what we=E2=80=99re building in Wichita. To not annoy us old farts, clarifying that you mean a carrier neutral facility or datacenter with an IXP would go a long way. :) Too many in the past built gold-plated IXPs, ending up with an appalling cost model that attracts nobody. This total plan, at this cost, is a *very good* one, and my hope would be, commoditized and widely replicated to even more than the 120 locations you project - but my hope is that the IXP component will mirror the successful IXP models already existing in the USA. The costs of interconnecting networks have fallen dramatically, and can fall further. > > > Saying an IXP can be built for $8k is enormously confusing to many policy= makers who do not understand the issue or how interconnection & peering act= ually work, yet have enormous power to set policy and spend money that will= affect the future of the Internet for generations. Operational expense needs to be discussed. The underlying technologies used to "make it happen", need to be selected. It is amazing what a modern cheap 100GB 32 port switch can do. IPv6 is mandatory nowadays while still finding a way to carry what little remains of IPv4 space efficiently is needed. It would help if there was a local mirror of one or more of the root DNS servers. Some really tough design choices regarding what forms of active ethernet fiber vs a vs gpon need to be made. And so on. Who makes those decisions? > > > > We began this whole initiative by asking a series of questions to help us= arrive at our model for IXP (building) proliferation. I=E2=80=99ll use Wi= chita as the context for these questions, but these could just as easily ap= ply to any other similar city that is home to a large public research unive= rsity: Thank you for sharing this last criterion. I had done a similar (much briefer) study targetting latency and resilience primarily, and what it would cost to do more "rural IXPs" - call them RXPs - every 50 miles or so - on the cheap as an outgrowth of BEAD. But that would be a subject for another thread. But I did not limit it to "research" universities, but to areas that had universities. Certainly there is high demand for sexy AI-related things, but the nuts and bolts of how to design and build networks, is lacking. I regard network design and operations to be a branch of civil engineering nowadays, and most operations people are quite leery of letting grad students loose with operational networks. I would love to see more universities actually teaching the skills to be a decent sysadmin (or SRE), because basic knowledge of packets, routing, tcp, bgp, resiliency, and so on is in the decline. Being a BOFH requires far more skills than a electrician and is actually comparable in skills and stress to being a doctor. (SREs get paid pretty well, but most fall into the profession rather than being directly trained on it) Instead, I have been coping (as part of bead), at 6 week educational programs intended to train people how to splice fiber. So I would broaden your targets to places that also intend to teach people how to design and maintain civil infrastructure, and plan ahead for disaster recovery. This includes connecting up governments and emergency services. Reusing old postal buildings is an option, as are other lower grades of schools. I would love to see curricula for the next generation of BOFHs that included formerly basic things like how to decode a packet capture and teachings from TCP/ip volume 3, illustrated, and everything in-between. Obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/705/ > > > > Should Wichita, with a regional metro population of 600k+, be literally d= ependent, from an interconnection standpoint, on Kansas City and Denver for= ever? No. > Okay, then what type of facility does Wichita need? Ideally, something t= hat can meet current needs and scale to meet future needs. > What are the attributes of such a facility? > > Does it need to be carrier-neutral? Yes. > Does it need to be secure? Yes. > Does it need to provide a level-playing field for networks of all types? = Yes. > Does it need to be able to convey rights to, and protect the rights of, i= ts tenants? Yes. > Does it need to be a facility that networks can rely on to remain =E2=80= =9Cup=E2=80=9D in the wake of adverse events? Yes. > > Resilient from power outages? Yes. > Resilient from cooling equipment failures? Yes. > Resistant to wind damage? Yes. > Resistant to vandalism or ballistics damage? Yes. > > Does it need to be financially sustainable? Yes. So that is the good question. How do you do opex? > Is =E2=80=9Cbest effort=E2=80=9D good enough? No. Redundancy helps. > Then does it need to be professionally managed? Yes. Where will they come from? What software do they have to manage the facility? Who writes the software? > > Is there an existing facility in Wichita that can meet those needs? No. In general I use latency as a proxy for where interconnects should go. Historically this has been about 500 miles. I thought it was interesting to explore what (as part of Biden=C2=B4s ev charger program) what it would take to have an old fashioned IXP ever 50 miles. Turns out that is pretty close 8k in gear + a lot of fiber. > So one must be built? Yes. > Where should it be built? Where a concentration of eyeball traffic alrea= dy exists that can grow a peering ecosystem faster than it might otherwise,= and that is also proximate to existing fiber plant, and where diverse manh= oles can be placed on the edge of public right-of-way. > > > > In the case of Wichita, that=E2=80=99s at Wichita State University. Do they teach how to run a network? > > > > Creating a secure, neutral, resilient interconnection facility with prope= r cooling, power systems, lockable cabinet space, diverse manholes and POE = isn=E2=80=99t cheap. The whole project is actually more than the $5M grant= we received. We=E2=80=99re putting in over $800k in cash, plus additional= in-kind match. > > > > We=E2=80=99ve done the data analyses necessary to determine which communi= ties need such facilities, and that=E2=80=99s how we came up with our list = of 125 target communities. Most of them are home to public research univer= sities, but have no IXP or IX. Not all of those communities are equal in t= erms of priority, but all of them have a need, and we=E2=80=99re actively s= eeking pathways to scale that preserve our core principles and avoid the ne= ed for grants. But that=E2=80=99s a big challenge. > > > > I really appreciate the opportunity to provide clarity on the project and= I=E2=80=99m happy to answer your questions. Surely we agree on much more = than we disagree. > > > > --Brent Legg, Connected Nation > > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain --=20 40 years of net history, a couple songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DD9RGX6QFm5E Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos