From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yb1-xb34.google.com (mail-yb1-xb34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CEC43CB4E for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2023 14:10:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb34.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-d8162698f0dso1347180276.0 for ; Tue, 03 Oct 2023 11:10:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1696356621; x=1696961421; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=oegGmrNzeNpMRsza3wYBD3sFqZzWPTuB4a7K9WrQ2NA=; b=S5HJfE1ZS1CeKsTVXeDZl8734LNt2XiGHCP1yTrjpNx8unirWJT24k7fzC8zlAALDe CYES6wx5tLUa8YqQYbIBgqMw4j5tSkqVCn+gLHyLKg0PswBPfcLI4w88oNaJAzAuUmL1 KsQrCNLo/L8elaAaRJs4eAbzsIcC0wZNU9k1OIXpxAVMyUDoT29BwesPHqqfUBzqOqpY Pn1XU3OELaaFUgQriPTrEiXYHsrDrj/XYnSidI5KBVGtP/yXQOtm3HElYCyBraId1rzt fOTdEuCObcII4210V3pPM4CybBWO7gmn0tnZoKdmlaWdA0Y761/r+gAE25m7um2UN/lK glTA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1696356621; x=1696961421; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=oegGmrNzeNpMRsza3wYBD3sFqZzWPTuB4a7K9WrQ2NA=; b=gg7lUnS2huqhXMdUvZtj8h1hMUWAs6uoVJAGzuplpcdHlAYi3e/xWmNL5AEtKWX9E3 QDin8NluR6R4N4T1DkDjtDY2DFAUuTZabtTkuQfLPX0rE5WndDsceBqb+pTeRgKc+kY1 u+V1VIVkEfEkGCSGo85Q9a1qdBEcIL+S2lkJTXpnT5TF+OyT5D0RKtbg4OuPbQYNAkeW 16eEyL51iB3I9gxqjSB28Kvz2BEFiW7URsTzTljMFcLmJ9qEknYyzDaVvbWC5vqwpiuo HC+8Z7nIbgdmPHpiVVqGbFWT7aT0KmumOePY0xkTVZb3JqRoCmUG0HZIoAlDE5drpgYU SVxg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzjcsTodm5EuNamAF9HhTaktqg1DL/HoIJEQ3TsNE4NFDrrwrE6 1nU+2VeCBie+3yFWTA8ozle3/ow6s6NyZU4UjnuUVUPgP3o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFf+Qd5a6oA9H9ny9sjzo7OYpTM9QcHVKwQg0bXvVHl9AUAiJfHnNAPZPxVkInBrmqnyoxSrlmbvA1z9qeVQWI= X-Received: by 2002:a25:8a0d:0:b0:d91:6d2e:6f17 with SMTP id g13-20020a258a0d000000b00d916d2e6f17mr9702ybl.54.1696356621391; Tue, 03 Oct 2023 11:10:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6D7F7242-248B-4FD4-BEDA-EE931B7DFE3C@andyring.com> <0a158308-e0c1-4722-8013-745e3ded232d@app.fastmail.com> <1B7534EB-2FCE-4500-B53D-F1DFEED1DBC7@gmx.de> <8dbe2688ccf5b9e976a03e8e4f36fb4d@rjmcmahon.com> <9E96A830-CE03-44FC-925B-77896FD6976E@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <9E96A830-CE03-44FC-925B-77896FD6976E@gmx.de> From: dan Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2023 12:10:09 -0600 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d49ad00606d3cd91" Subject: Re: [NNagain] On "Throttling" behaviors X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2023 18:10:22 -0000 --000000000000d49ad00606d3cd91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 11:55=E2=80=AFAM Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > ... > > > > The idea of municipal ownership of access networks in the U.S. was > pushed in 2000 after the 1996 Telco act. It didn't work out. > My state specifically bans municipalities from building or owning networks involved in internet delivery. I think about a dozen states do this. In my state, I think this was a specific charity by the governor to his buddies at spectrum so cities didn't compete against spectrum.... > > > > > The U.S. railroads were natural monopolies. They were given massive lan= d > grants to build out. They ran as private companies for about one century. > They lost their monopoly position after third generations who inherited > them used these monopolies to price guoge government during WWI and WWII. > That's part of the reason most DoT type govt agencies today are "roads & > airports" vs "roads, rail & airports." Rail has been re privatized and > under invested - perfect for Warren Buffett but no so good for everyone > else nor for the climate. > I don't know that this is an appropriate conclusion. I don't think that any railroads were monopolies until the government gave out land grants and monies to build those monopolies and now they are absolutely government backed monopolies. Yes, railroads gouged for use of their lines, but that was more price collusion than monopoly. > > > Governments will respond to monopoly abuse after it occurs, not before. > > [SM] Indeed, that is often the case... > and often WAY after and only when the government itself feels the pain of it. > > > First, the infrastructure needs massive funding to be installed , however that can get done. Municipal revenue bonds & networks sound nice > in theory but haven't worked over the last two decades. Time to try > something different. > There is existing dark fiber through or within a few miles of something like 95% of US towns, down to tiny villages. The government has already paid lots of money out to get fiber everywhere, but then that fiber is not readily available to purchase. This goes back to the microIX model discussed on the bufferbloat list and matrix chat. We only need to find a way to require this fiber be sold and at reasonable rates to allow for competition. This really isn't a big infrastructure spend because that was spent 2 decades ago. --000000000000d49ad00606d3cd91 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 11:55=E2=80=AF= AM Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
...
>
> The idea of municipal ownership of access networks in the U.S. was pus= hed in 2000 after the 1996 Telco act. It didn't work out.

My state specifically bans municipalities from building or owni= ng networks involved in internet delivery.=C2=A0 I think about a dozen stat= es do this.=C2=A0 In my state, I think this was a specific charity by the g= overnor to his buddies at spectrum so cities didn't compete against spe= ctrum....


>
> Governments will respond to monopoly abuse after it occurs, not before= .

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [SM] Indeed, that is often the case...
and often WAY after and only when the government itself feels = the pain of it.
=C2=A0

> First, the infrastructure needs massive funding to be installed=C2=A0<= /blockquote>
, however tha= t can get done. Municipal revenue bonds & networks sound nice in theory= but haven't worked over the last two decades. Time to try something di= fferent.

There is existing dark fiber through or w= ithin a few miles of something like 95% of US towns, down to tiny villages.= =C2=A0 The government has already paid lots of money out to get fiber every= where, but then that fiber is not readily available to purchase.=C2=A0 This= goes back to the microIX model discussed on the bufferbloat list and matri= x chat.=C2=A0 =C2=A0We only need to find a way to require this fiber be sol= d and at reasonable rates to allow for competition.=C2=A0 This really isn&#= 39;t a big infrastructure spend because that was spent 2 decades ago.
= =C2=A0
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