From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C16FB3B2A4 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 2024 12:26:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id ca18e2360f4ac-7c40863de70so59357639f.0 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 2024 09:26:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1709227605; x=1709832405; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=JiKdnuJLoSCS1emstjKgjKrolWv/SVh+Hp7LjRcfbyU=; b=mewZ5AX5kwP2YSme11y+rmbEWzgHyN2v5EpZ/QzAqRDTDA5/pmRyHPUvXFvw26Z3lX d44dLpOdAqtCyQaCGj+d5HaI2B+0wmBxuvDkPn8bnJI0tptCtWTSCgli+OXraXgw20Nh fn3Z/1q6PmR/sLcsi8yZDmH+wkYxsCEiObM1iptlGzXbHTdtcyP3/5JozlspNjJ41hGc 4F0yIx6Tx7BWf/ve+YWaqrKv76f73NSMSWifLm9XoQnamkhFF0+O26lF5PH1GHYs+K5C rWXZuI4knR4ARHRhADwNh292KFMbkr8+zbscbXYl9HX6IvVi6I6ucaMQZowR/p6tSWtc U3sg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1709227605; x=1709832405; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=JiKdnuJLoSCS1emstjKgjKrolWv/SVh+Hp7LjRcfbyU=; b=COaSfdWUPJBDbUajc2JVjoQnaivrrU3V7jBdYYRd6RmxQa18R8xVeixStjOv1ZFCiv ++bvwf5Dr3NVQ8mlRgmIhGaOqzWkHuIpa/sJzwjdT7dxS9/Fgv8AtHia85JHLrzz2xpY WfnFh/P8qikXIjBK5/sg2H+zeCi5UARglCXVOHqtWzZPoEWe2m8Dnuo2SkPtwX72oWLu S7lkEL28aq8F07EDF8XsN8dZp6zJk3X3y6ep1yCdQMUG0Bp4jswbtHCjI45Wi5tHVQBj 84VevGIsUq0u3SCeKC1JjRCtfczNd1i7vCD89izQntT+5CHVglQWIBvlTKirfCqiU0I+ zjvQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yz+EgGM65Je+5IRPP+ME/5sMpQwCINhY3X1NHr4gakK6fYt51GJ F9+LGKTAVQDiygkKPLeZcNWWnj+bwPStEa0TY0ujLNDVGTVdH/aE9606/X3P1Je87Wr3Ecm8MvL MwPrLKgpook71h6D84oJqY1tTFrac/oUVkRiVNA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEnQM09SDagsILwJooN8LNFL1ZH1UwKn8MZYt3csGpihCU+G6DSOOhk/9byUVX+uhvycDFtmiHyxPAWrWQ2UaY= X-Received: by 2002:a5e:cb0b:0:b0:7c7:e01b:4711 with SMTP id p11-20020a5ecb0b000000b007c7e01b4711mr3253510iom.11.1709227604851; Thu, 29 Feb 2024 09:26:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Lee Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 12:26:32 -0500 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [NNagain] Geoff Huston's panel X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 17:26:45 -0000 On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 9:12=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote: > > He is being incredibly provocative this week. It hurt to sit through this= . > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DgxO73fH0VqM Yes, he's provocative - but also entertaining. And don't forget the audien= ce: ABOUT APRICOT Representing Asia Pacific's largest international Internet conference, Asia Pacific Regional Internet Conference on Operational Technologies (APRICOT) draws many of the world's best Internet engineers, operators, researchers, service providers, users and policy communities from over 50 countries to teach, present, and do their own human networking. His last slide deck seemed to be a call to arms. He's near the end of his career, so for all the Internet engineers, etc. I saw it as a "here's where we're going. Do you want to contribute to this trend or take the Internet in a different direction?" For example, after talking about CDNs and how most content is now local he brings up the bit about if 10% of your traffic costs you 90% of your carriage costs, if I was a rational provider, I would say to all those customers who need that 10% of the traffic go find someone else. I'm not going to do it. Don't forget, this is a deregulated world - you can do that. There is no universal obligation to carry default. Does network neutrality require an ISP to connect you to the Internet at large? Or do they get to drop the "expensive" traffic that requires connecting to a transit provider (or however they do it now to connect to the global Internet). I was a bit dubious about the assertion that most traffic stays within the AS but surprise, surprise, surprise (most people here are old enough to remember Gomer Pyle.. right?).. youtube content is in the Verizon network. Start wireshark, get the IP address of the youtube server and $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:803:f00::e traceroute to 2600:803:f00::e (2600:803:f00::e), 30 hops max, 72 byte packe= ts <.. snip ..> 3 2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701] 33.323 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701] 2.542 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701] 33.315 ms 4 * * * 5 2600:803:6af::6 [AS701] 3.843 ms 3.838 ms 3.834 ms 6 2600:803:f00::e [AS701] 2.911 ms 2.216 ms 2.472 ms Do the same for Netflix and I get three [??] different ASs: $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 traceroute to 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 (2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617), 30 hops max, 72 byte packets <.. snip ..> 5 2600:803:9af::82 [AS701] 8.048 ms 2600:803:9af::5a [AS701] 8.297 ms 2600:803:2::5a [AS701] 8.294 ms 6 * 2620:107:4000:c5c0::f3fd:f [*] 2.846 ms 2620:107:4000:c5c1::f3fd:20 [*] 2.810 ms 7 2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d5b1 [*] 8.148 ms 2620:107:4000:cfff::f203:54b1 [*] 5.289 ms 2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d4b1 [*] 4.300 ms 8 2620:107:4000:a793::f000:3863 [*] 4.865 ms 2620:107:4000:a610::f000:2403 [*] 5.245 ms 2620:107:4000:acd3::f000:e060 [*] 5.201 ms 9 * * * 10 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509] 4.881 ms 4.864 ms 4.848 ms 11 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509] 6.351 ms 6.075 ms 5.935 ms Does it violate network neutrality that youtube content takes the "fast lane" getting to me? and just for chuckles.. $ dig 2024.apricot.net aaaa +short 2001:dd8:f::1 $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2001:dd8:f::1 traceroute to 2001:dd8:f::1 (2001:dd8:f::1), 30 hops max, 72 byte packets <.. snip ..> 3 2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701] 27.390 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701] 5.711 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701] 27.384 ms 4 * * * 5 * * 2001:2035:0:bb3::1 [AS1299] 7.235 ms 6 2001:2034:1:73::1 [AS1299] 7.763 ms 6.033 ms 5.996 ms 7 2001:2034:1:b7::1 [AS1299] 11.530 ms 2001:2034:1:b8::1 [AS1299] 10.704 ms * 8 * * * 9 2001:2000:3080:230d::2 [AS1299] 72.609 ms 72.594 ms 73.096 ms 10 * * * 11 * * * 12 * * * 13 * 2402:7800:10::2 [AS4826] 289.033 ms * 14 2402:7800:10:1::12 [AS4826] 290.608 ms 292.440 ms 290.840 ms 15 2402:7800:10:8::16 [AS4826] 228.836 ms 229.406 ms 231.379 ms 16 2001:dd8:8:38::2 [AS4608] 233.803 ms 231.332 ms 233.572 ms 17 2001:dd8:f::1 [AS4608] 231.822 ms 231.137 ms 232.772 ms Oh my.. I'm betting that's a lot more than 100 miles away :) Regards, Lee