From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 352ED3B29D; Sun, 15 Jun 2025 17:40:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-oa1-f43.google.com (mail-oa1-f43.google.com [209.85.160.43]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4817623C00; Sun, 15 Jun 2025 14:40:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com 4817623C00 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1750023640; bh=UXUX7o0NIE4IN438H/jfAE6R0Vsg0n6SYNmf9rPoZVA=; h=References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:Subject:To:Cc:From; b=AE4dZGYgel9eg8K1cjaeDRovdlLDgEDk2pkKOIA6VpDv2F1JSZkB5MJ/ydIRTVcKg Cxxk4qekQvAOssc/EMlxOi/P5u5SthIf1nO3G8DnTezntlTCSkyFRuxvzOKBjosTvy aG8YqV9YaH2Rlq4OKk3bM/L7X8vs9dQnkP0KE83k= Received: by mail-oa1-f43.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2e9071e3706so1958685fac.0; Sun, 15 Jun 2025 14:40:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVeG3zNKDJ86zGw+Yszj2PdRhgdNXezx50FMICQDXXT1Bp7VqFRe1NqBLWSRiMMLsOJCcSynxpW3XyU3Clhw/w=@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCW53rLPojxvN4qPatbRRrGcpTf4fPX7lSGVqI46lGkYD6JZfXnXcenwIg+crNGd08ueRgs41s3bJXWxnjKizQ==@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCXAzL7prA5SwfIZb4NRhYEO7Y52/eG9YJXj8cjgegpMvHJd6zjLS5CP68KXRc7pQal3xglUJAfSawtjPoR3WAk=@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCXETobRKQKwl4cTBtSX8MX6tNmHWs6SfI1eMldtrEHe832rYHYkp+D3Fg6Je10G7xCxkqM8neuDbOeQAssijcE=@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCXlbO9eR9WbGrJPttGdJClZAHunKIiac2F8HBOyZuXmqK34w4NJHypxVljVR09VHp+pQ1HdXWAuCv85fSYLHQ==@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyKWZK3pFIzSL2Nm8GeVuKfDAQHUJ8oXViISaL5GRvkwfid2TGV qCwXWMQyoCB7GdQng9KmrLW/Xl9xkRIZLo/AqiHQudP/ut8gwcdAzHTLXWc27HWjeg8qGV7Ersi GnfUsgef/rS4PekVCi5CnbL6+H5Xf5Ok= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHn54MEPcyKIvL6+98BwXcjxXtzdw1owW1JND1JSm2iMjt5cHy7g8bWYsasMpff/E8HfHiiB7iRyUgFtwRWOo4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:1ec8:b0:29e:3c90:148b with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2eaf08c9ccamr4412087fac.26.1750023639354; Sun, 15 Jun 2025 14:40:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert McMahon Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 14:40:28 -0700 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFuYY81lFRvJqBJ1uMaVR2MMO5ijvgsGXhy8QsZzzJ2kZGjJdeRtmxRyRrk Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Cc: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow , cerowrt-users@lists.bufferbloat.net, Herbert Wolverson , Make-Wifi-fast , cerowrt-commits@lists.bufferbloat.net, codel-wireless@lists.bufferbloat.net, cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net, =?UTF-8?Q?Robert_Chac=C3=B3n?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005f53860637a32153" Subject: Re: [NNagain] Announcing the LibreQoS Bufferbloat Test Platform X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 21:40:41 -0000 --0000000000005f53860637a32153 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A-F are not good units. It's not even good to use such graded in schools (per Alfie Kohn.) Propagating this seems confusing at best. My latest is packets or bytes in flight. It's part of iperf2 enhanced outputs on the client side. Linux required Bob On Sun, Jun 15, 2025, 9:22 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Nnagain = < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > re: *thoughts and feedback!* > > your https://test.libreqos.com tests of [Single User Test] & [Virtual > Household Mode] both give yours truly bufferbloat grades of *A+ * > > whereas the https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat test gives yours > truly a bufferbloat brade grade of *C* > > > https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3Db13810f2-e999-4045-8= e8b-ab3ab8b957c5 > > #1.) Why/What's the difference? > > #2.) Who/Which one to believe=C2=BF > > g > > On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 4:58=E2=80=AFAM Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> Hello to all, >> >> We're excited to announce the release of the *LibreQoS Bufferbloat Test*= =E2=80=93 >> an open-source bufferbloat testing solution designed specifically for IS= Ps >> and network operators to deploy for their customers. >> >> *Link* >> https://test.libreqos.com >> >> *What Makes This Different* >> >> While there are several bufferbloat testing tools available, this >> platform addresses a critical gap: ISP-deployable infrastructure that >> provides both traditional testing and realistic household simulation. >> >> As Dave T=C3=A4ht highlighted in his influential article "What's Wrong w= ith >> Speed Tests" , traditional >> speed tests fail to measure what users actually experience. We tried to >> address Dave's points to make a better speed test that focuses on the >> metric that matters: latency under load in realistic usage scenarios. >> >> *Two Complementary Test Modes* >> >> *Single User Test Mode* >> >> - Traditional sequential load testing (baseline =E2=86=92 download = =E2=86=92 upload =E2=86=92 >> bidirectional) >> - Measures working latency and jitter during each phase >> - Familiar A+ to F grading based on latency under load increases >> - Comparable to existing tools like DSLReports Speed Test and >> Waveform Bufferbloat Test >> >> >> *Virtual Household Mode (The Innovation)* >> >> Process-isolated simulation of 4 concurrent users with authentic traffic >> patterns: >> >> - Alex (Gaming): 1.5 Mbps constant, jitter-sensitive for competitive >> gaming >> - Sarah (Video Conference): 2.5 Mbps bidirectional, Teams simulation >> with working latency monitoring >> - Jake (Netflix HD): 25 Mbps bursts (1s on, 4s off), realistic >> streaming patterns >> - Computer (Background): Up to 200 Mbps continuous download, system >> updates >> >> >> Real-world relevance: Tests latency under load when multiple family >> members are online simultaneously >> >> Advanced grading: Network fairness, jitter measurement, and per-user >> working latency analysis >> >> *Why (not only) ISPs Need This* >> >> *The traditional approach of sending customers to third-party speed test >> sites has limitations:* >> >> - No control over test methodology or server placement >> - Limited correlation with customer support tickets >> - Generic results that don't reflect real-world usage patterns >> - No integration with ISP operational systems >> >> *This platform enables (not only) ISPs to:* >> >> - Host their own testing infrastructure with full control >> - Integrate with support systems via telemetry APIs >> - Provide customers with realistic household testing scenarios >> - Correlate test results with network performance and customer >> complaints >> >> >> *Open Source & Community* >> >> The entire platform is open source and available here: >> https://github.com/LibreQoE/bufferbloat_test >> >> We've designed this to be: >> >> - Easy to deploy for (not only) ISPs of any size >> - Scientifically meaningful in its measurement methodology >> - Realistic in its simulation of actual household usage >> - Integrable with existing ISP operational workflows >> >> >> >> *Community Feedback Requested* >> We'd love feedback from the bufferbloat.net community on: >> >> - Test methodology: Are we measuring the right metrics? >> - Grading thresholds: Do our A+ to F grades align with real-world >> impact? >> - Virtual household scenarios: What other realistic usage patterns >> should we simulate? >> - ISP adoption: What barriers exist for ISP deployment? >> >> >> >> *Technical Discussion* >> We'd welcome discussion about: >> >> - Measurement accuracy for working latency and jitter in virtual >> household mode >> - Traffic pattern authenticity (gaming, video conferencing, streaming= ) >> - Grading methodology for latency under load in complex multi-user >> scenarios >> - Integration approaches for ISP operational systems >> >> >> The platform represents our attempt to bridge the gap between academic >> bufferbloat research and practical ISP operations, building on the >> foundational work of researchers like Dave T=C3=A4ht and the broader buf= ferbloat >> community. We believe that widespread ISP deployment of proper bufferblo= at >> testing infrastructure will ultimately benefit the entire internet >> ecosystem. >> >> >> *Looking forward to the community's thoughts and feedback!* >> Best regards, >> >> The LibreQoS Team >> >> >> *In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: *1965-2025 >> >> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ >> >> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik >> >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 >> >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 >> >> Skype: casioa5302ca >> >> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >> > > > -- > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com > living as The Truth is True > > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --0000000000005f53860637a32153 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A-F are not good units. It's not even good to use suc= h graded in schools (per Alfie Kohn.) Propagating this seems confusing at b= est.=C2=A0

My latest is packet= s or bytes in flight. It's part of iperf2 enhanced outputs on the clien= t side. Linux required=C2=A0

Bob

On Sun, Jun 15, 2025, 9:22 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfel= low via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:=
re:=C2=A0thoughts and feedback!

your=C2=A0https://test.libreqos.com= =C2=A0tests of [Single User Test] & [Virtual Household Mode] both g= ive yours truly bufferbloat grades of=C2=A0A+=C2=A0
<= font face=3D"verdana, sans-serif">
whereas the=C2=A0https://www.wave= form.com/tools/bufferbloat=C2=A0test gives yours truly a bufferbloat br= ade grade of=C2=A0C

https://www.wave= form.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3Db13810f2-e999-4045-8e8b-ab3ab8b957c5

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif= ">#1.) Why/What's the difference?

#2.) Who/Which one to believe=C2=BF

g

On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 4:58=E2=80= =AFAM Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.= bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Hello to all,

We're excited= to announce the release of the=C2=A0LibreQoS Bufferbloat T= est=C2=A0=E2=80=93 an open-source bufferbloat testing solu= tion designed specifically for ISPs and network operators to deploy for the= ir customers.

Link
https://test.libreqos.com

What Makes This Different

While there are several bu= fferbloat testing tools available, this platform addresses a critical gap: = ISP-deployable infrastructure that provides both traditional testing and re= alistic household simulation.

As Dave T=C3=A4ht highlighted in his i= nfluential article=C2=A0"What&= #39;s Wrong with Speed Tests", traditional speed tests fail to mea= sure what users actually experience. We tried to address Dave's points = to make a better speed test that focuses on the metric that matters: latenc= y under load in realistic usage scenarios.

Two Complementary Test= Modes

Single User Test Mode
  • Traditional seque= ntial load testing (baseline =E2=86=92 download =E2=86=92 upload =E2=86=92 = bidirectional)
  • Measures working latency and jitter during each phas= e
  • Familiar A+ to F grading based on latency under load increases
  • Comparable to existing tools like DSLReports Speed Test and Waveform = Bufferbloat Test

Virtual Household Mode (The Innovation= )

Process-isolated simulation of 4 concurrent users with authent= ic traffic patterns:
  • Alex (Gaming): 1.5 Mbps constant, jitter-se= nsitive for competitive gaming
  • Sarah (Video Conference): 2.5 Mbps b= idirectional, Teams simulation with working latency monitoring
  • Jake= (Netflix HD): 25 Mbps bursts (1s on, 4s off), realistic streaming patterns=
  • Computer (Background): Up to 200 Mbps continuous download, system = updates

Real-world relevance: Tests latency under load whe= n multiple family members are online simultaneously

Advanced grading= : Network fairness, jitter measurement, and per-user working latency analys= is

Why (not only) ISPs Need This

The traditional ap= proach of sending customers to third-party speed test sites has limitations= :
  • No control over test methodology or server placement
    • <= li>Limited correlation with customer support tickets
  • Generic result= s that don't reflect real-world usage patterns
  • No integration w= ith ISP operational systems
This platform enables (not only) IS= Ps to:
  • Host their own testing infrastructure with full contr= ol
  • Integrate with support systems via telemetry APIs
  • Provid= e customers with realistic household testing scenarios
  • Correlate te= st results with network performance and customer complaints
Open Source & Community

The entire platform is open sou= rce and available here:=C2=A0htt= ps://github.com/LibreQoE/bufferbloat_test

We've designed thi= s to be:
  • Easy to deploy for (not only) ISPs of any size
  • = Scientifically meaningful in its measurement methodology
  • Realistic = in its simulation of actual household usage
  • Integrable with existin= g ISP operational workflows

Community Feedback Requeste= d

We'd love feedback from the bufferbloat.net co= mmunity on:
  • Test methodology: Are we measuring the right metrics= ?
  • Grading thresholds: Do our A+ to F grades align with real-world i= mpact?
  • Virtual household scenarios: What other realistic usage patt= erns should we simulate?
  • ISP adoption: What barriers exist for ISP = deployment?

Technical Discussion

We'd we= lcome discussion about:
  • Measurement accuracy for working latency= and jitter in virtual household mode
  • Traffic pattern authenticity = (gaming, video conferencing, streaming)
  • Grading methodology for lat= ency under load in complex multi-user scenarios
  • Integration approac= hes for ISP operational systems

The platform represents ou= r attempt to bridge the gap between academic bufferbloat research and pract= ical ISP operations, building on the foundational work of researchers like = Dave T=C3=A4ht and the broader bufferbloat community. We believe that wides= pread ISP deployment of proper bufferbloat testing infrastructure will ulti= mately benefit the entire internet ecosystem.

Looking forward to = the community's thoughts and feedback!

Best regards,

= The LibreQoS Team
<= div dir=3D"ltr">


In loving memory of Dave T=C3= =A4ht:=C2=A01965-2025

https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-= dave/


<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)">https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekb= orsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +42077523= 0885

= Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.= borsik@gmail.com

_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/li= stinfo/nnagain


--
= Geoff.Go= odfellow@iconia.com
= living as The Truth is True

_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/li= stinfo/nnagain
--0000000000005f53860637a32153--