From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22EE43B2A4 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 17:38:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f175.google.com (mail-yb1-f175.google.com [209.85.219.175]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D79CF1B2B4 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 14:38:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com D79CF1B2B4 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1718919486; bh=PiE5og4ltg6lwIFCw7zPxVR/1nYwLW16TeCxaQJx8Jc=; h=References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:Subject:To:Cc:From; b=pbcH+SVHGuW20uxYp1aW3RJmqELyTWoxA14vR6v7xpRuaZ7icS4oitO5B35n5AsfX ZsT4Ipi4lTRrRY++PlGidGR7YrvokcjzCNWFefs3JfUY1t/x46X1Prve8CU7+SDi7a GfgFKMrFaERTE0BbkbpfmtXIvcgDx9dojYtqz4Ds= Received: by mail-yb1-f175.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-dfe41f7852cso1408785276.1 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 14:38:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx9GqC1ceyLqEvo+363dosYA5wPnSYcqtN9UigIzY8JrZXKxZY6 XBswLG08028ETOGYh2QxIDWU6xejOKzItMc1rjcOwBFo3mO0wl0hjwvZvzvTqZdoUq4JxCrUPEK 5tv6k9RAZfqpPuud7lZ8xTueubDk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF43fyv6Oqj4OiXViFDaAORl2KX/yEeZMTUGNV/7gEs2FSpdeeJMyYc3qNUW2SrHjzcNCnnYRMQdR41bLLOtE4= X-Received: by 2002:a25:adcb:0:b0:dfe:fd16:cbc6 with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e02be138fe9mr6738732276.14.1718919485990; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 14:38:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <62FCACDB-013F-4E4B-8FE5-A497E2C9C0C9@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <62FCACDB-013F-4E4B-8FE5-A497E2C9C0C9@gmx.de> From: Robert McMahon Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 14:37:55 -0700 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Sebastian Moeller Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [NNagain] Carr blasts BEAD X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 21:38:08 -0000 Hi Sebastian, I think fronthaul & wireless networks will cause consumers to ask more from the OSPs which will include market payments for OSP upgrades. EVs seem to be doing this for electric infrastructure. The fronthaul concentrator probably isn't a switch as room/room isn't needed. The energy cost of the TCAMs in switches are too high. I think the fronthaul concentrator needs a 20 year lifetime and to be passively cooled. Maybe 25W max. The thin radios or remote radio heads don't have to be 802.11. They basically connect a fiber cable to a wire acting as an antenna or a patch antenna. These parts are plugable, analogous to an SFP in a data center. The buy & upgrade cadence will match the engineering NRE cadences. 802.11 is the easy choice now per mobile phones have paid out a large NRE (as game consoles did for Nvidia's GPUs) This is a multi company or industry wide challenge. A new software company is likely needed along with system integrators and component suppliers. And we need lots of installers. Not one person nor even one company can achieve this. The NRE is quite large for the new chips. They have to have a potential to go worldwide otherwise the NRE will never be allocated. This is not a new story. Ethernet switching origins were FDDI concentrators though few connected the dots ahead of that evolution. Now people think ethernet switches have always existed. It took decades of engineering to get from FDDI to where we are today. Engineers fundamentally have to lead this as it's hard core engineers that define the horizon effect. (It's really not much different from the days when Einstein's father was deploying electricity in Europe. I suspect those early pioneers had some idea of what they were actually doing for our societies.) Bob On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 12:08=E2=80=AFAM Sebastian Moeller wrote: > > Hi Bob, > > > > On 20. Jun 2024, at 00:18, Robert McMahon via Nnagain wrote: > > > > False dichotomy. Fiber and wireless are the end game. > > +1, at least on the fiber part. Sure building out near-universal infrastr= ucture typically has a relative high up-front cost, but tends to increase p= roductivity over longer time frames#. Given that in the long run it is goin= g to be the society that will profit from it, I see no reason why the socie= ty should not pay for the deployment... That however IMHO is orthogonal to = the "many of the goals could be achieved by better software" argument, as t= hat better software will also help on fiber deployments* and can be useful = for bridging gaps until the (slowish) deployment reaches individual areas. > > #) Just look at other infrastructure: power lines, wast/waste-water lines= , gas pipelines, roads, the POTS network... getting near universal roll-out= for each was/is also a costly measure, and still the argument, instead of = building roads we should simply subsidise 4x4 off road vehicles for people = living in such areas hopefully is an obvious dud. Or rather over emphasises= the short term cost over the long term gains. Capitalism in its stock mark= et driven form typically lacks the stamina to really go for the longer term= gains and hence often it is left to the tax payer to make such investments= happen. And yes, thast comes with quite some bean counting, pencil pushing= and delays, but 'better late then n > > *) Case in point, still popular GPON typically only offers 2.4/1.2 Gbps s= egment capacity, with (max) segment size often 32 or 64 subscribers, leavin= g only 2400/32 =3D 75 to 2400/64 =3D 37.5 Mbps of average capacity per user= . So during primetime GPON segments will likely see similar disparities bet= ween capacity and demand as FWA segments, and will likely desire the same c= ounter measures. > > > > The major fiber installers I know say they no longer pull copper, even = in houses. The pull strength and bend ratios of fiber now exceed all others= . Fiber is one and done. Fiber cables don't have capillary action when subm= erged per rainstorms. Signal loss of copper at 100Gb/s is in dB per inch. T= he sweet spot for optics considering all kpis including power per bit deliv= ered is 100G. > > Not doubting that at all, yet I can see that typical end-users will not r= eally be able to fill up such a pipe anytime soon; and I doubt that end-use= rs are more sensitive to $/bit than to total $, so a 100G solution would ne= ed to come close to current prices for 1 or 2G5 Gbps ethernet gear and that= is including the optics. Not sure 100G switches will become 'affordable' f= or mere end users any time soon. > > > Fiber is less than 0.5 db over 2Km independent of modulation. Thin as = a hair and capacity abundant. > > It also is a tad more resistant to RF ingress than copper or wireless net= works... > > > Wireless is needed for the unleashing of devices and no more. Maybe 29'= like smoke detectors. > > IMHO WiFi still has a way to come... but also will not go away, so I agre= e (more grudgingly than to the fiber part). > > > Those that figure this out will lead and make for the future and have m= eaningful impact. > > Assuming they can actually make networking gear or are in a position to c= reate requirement lists for big customers of such gear, no? > > Regards > Sebastian > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 19, 2024, 2:22 PM le berger des photons via Nnagain wrote: > > maybe they'll pay some attention to you in 18 months when the only ISP = doing well will be ones that are either owned by the Rothschilds or trade a= month of internet for some eggs and a chicken. > > > > On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 10:57=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote: > > Some good rhetoric here: https://x.com/BrendanCarrFCC > > > > I have been boggling at some of the hurdles required to get this fundin= g. I gave up on BEAD last year, as the goalposts seem to be forever recedin= g and mounted on unicorns dancing on cotton candy clouds. I know there is m= ore progress being made than meets the eye, but to me it's in spite of BEAD= , rather than because of it. ("in spite" meaning - you are going to subsidi= ze WHAT??) > > > > My pithy comment about the "fiber party". > > > > Bead has provided employment to a lot of telephone polishers, political= hacks, and paper pushers. I tried to point out that many of the goals coul= d be achieved by better software on wireless networks; the fiber party took= it over. And oh! Did they party! > > > > https://x.com/mtaht/status/1803510661093392667 > > > > And for the records, I actually rather liked the ACP program. And Libre= Qos passed 154 ISPs deploying it yesterday. > > > > -- > > https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:720340005717218099= 2/ > > Donations Drive. > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > > _______________________________________________ > > Nnagain mailing list > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > _______________________________________________ > > Nnagain mailing list > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > _______________________________________________ > > Nnagain mailing list > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >