[NNagain] an eloquent critique of NASA

[NNagain] an eloquent critique of NASA

[Dave Taht]

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https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2024/10/02/sls-is-still-a-national-disgrace/

-- 
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

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Re: [NNagain] an eloquent critique of NASA

[Robert McMahon]

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SpaceX is no better than NASA by my opinion. A proper critique was done in
1970 and still applies today. See link. I grew up in Houston & with
astronauts & their kids because LBJ was from Texas. Seen space projects my
entire life. Focus should be on our planet and robots on the others. The
ego centric view of manned space flight is an illness by my opinion.

https://youtu.be/wtSSP8FVUGY?feature=shared

Bob

On Thu, Oct 3, 2024, 7:03 PM Dave Taht via Nnagain <
nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

>
>
> https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2024/10/02/sls-is-still-a-national-disgrace/
>
> --
> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>

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Re: [NNagain] an eloquent critique of NASA

[Dave Taht]

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On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 10:46 AM Robert McMahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
wrote:

> SpaceX is no better than NASA by my opinion. A proper critique was done in
> 1970 and still applies today. See link. I grew up in Houston & with
> astronauts & their kids because LBJ was from Texas. Seen space projects my
> entire life. Focus should be on our planet and robots on the others. The
> ego centric view of manned space flight is an illness by my opinion.
>
> https://youtu.be/wtSSP8FVUGY?feature=shared
>

Hey, thx. I had heard of, but not heard, that poem before.

As a counter, for the inspiring need for humans in space: try:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD1ixTr4JWY&t=50s

Otherwise I do generally prefer robotic exploration. Building and flying
modernized versions of this would be fun:
https://dartslab.jpl.nasa.gov/References/pdf/2019-mars-heli.pdf

hopefully tomorrow Hera launches!



>
>
> Bob
>
> On Thu, Oct 3, 2024, 7:03 PM Dave Taht via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2024/10/02/sls-is-still-a-national-disgrace/
>>
>> --
>> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nnagain mailing list
>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>>
>

-- 
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

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Re: [NNagain] an eloquent critique of NASA

[Robert McMahon]

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The hard part is life support systems and not so much the rockets. Musk
handwaves and claims life support is easy, both on Mars and in the
spacecraft t/fro. The song reveals it's not so easy to keep humans healthy
and well, even on this earth where humans evolved to survive.

Musk constantly fails in his claims. His cult like following demonstrates
Festinger's When Phrophecy Fails. Failed prophecy which, counter to
intuition, strengthens the cult's belief in their leader. It's an illness
and not something to promote by my judgment. I think us selecting leaders
and peers that work from a basis of reality is they way to improve things.
See the world as it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails

" the team had seen that in some cases the failure of a prophecy, rather
than causing a rejection of the original belief system, could lead
believers to increase their personal commitment, and also increase their
efforts to recruit others into the belief"



On Sun, Oct 6, 2024, 6:14 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 10:46 AM Robert McMahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
> wrote:
>
>> SpaceX is no better than NASA by my opinion. A proper critique was done
>> in 1970 and still applies today. See link. I grew up in Houston & with
>> astronauts & their kids because LBJ was from Texas. Seen space projects my
>> entire life. Focus should be on our planet and robots on the others. The
>> ego centric view of manned space flight is an illness by my opinion.
>>
>> https://youtu.be/wtSSP8FVUGY?feature=shared
>>
>
> Hey, thx. I had heard of, but not heard, that poem before.
>
> As a counter, for the inspiring need for humans in space: try:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD1ixTr4JWY&t=50s
>
> Otherwise I do generally prefer robotic exploration. Building and flying
> modernized versions of this would be fun:
> https://dartslab.jpl.nasa.gov/References/pdf/2019-mars-heli.pdf
>
> hopefully tomorrow Hera launches!
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2024, 7:03 PM Dave Taht via Nnagain <
>> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2024/10/02/sls-is-still-a-national-disgrace/
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nnagain mailing list
>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>>>
>>
>
> --
> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>

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Re: [NNagain] an eloquent critique of NASA

[Vint Cerf]

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sounds like a sunk cost argument.

v



On Mon, Oct 7, 2024 at 9:58 AM Robert McMahon via Nnagain <
nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> The hard part is life support systems and not so much the rockets. Musk
> handwaves and claims life support is easy, both on Mars and in the
> spacecraft t/fro. The song reveals it's not so easy to keep humans healthy
> and well, even on this earth where humans evolved to survive.
>
> Musk constantly fails in his claims. His cult like following demonstrates
> Festinger's When Phrophecy Fails. Failed prophecy which, counter to
> intuition, strengthens the cult's belief in their leader. It's an illness
> and not something to promote by my judgment. I think us selecting leaders
> and peers that work from a basis of reality is they way to improve things.
> See the world as it is.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails
>
> " the team had seen that in some cases the failure of a prophecy, rather
> than causing a rejection of the original belief system, could lead
> believers to increase their personal commitment, and also increase their
> efforts to recruit others into the belief"
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 6, 2024, 6:14 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 10:46 AM Robert McMahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> SpaceX is no better than NASA by my opinion. A proper critique was done
>>> in 1970 and still applies today. See link. I grew up in Houston & with
>>> astronauts & their kids because LBJ was from Texas. Seen space projects my
>>> entire life. Focus should be on our planet and robots on the others. The
>>> ego centric view of manned space flight is an illness by my opinion.
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/wtSSP8FVUGY?feature=shared
>>>
>>
>> Hey, thx. I had heard of, but not heard, that poem before.
>>
>> As a counter, for the inspiring need for humans in space: try:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD1ixTr4JWY&t=50s
>>
>> Otherwise I do generally prefer robotic exploration. Building and flying
>> modernized versions of this would be fun:
>> https://dartslab.jpl.nasa.gov/References/pdf/2019-mars-heli.pdf
>>
>> hopefully tomorrow Hera launches!
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2024, 7:03 PM Dave Taht via Nnagain <
>>> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2024/10/02/sls-is-still-a-national-disgrace/
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Nnagain mailing list
>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>


-- 
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346


until further notice

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Re: [NNagain] an eloquent critique of NASA

[David Bray, PhD]

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To Robert's point - humans weren't designed for space environments. Robots
do make more sense. For humans to survive space, we'll have to change who
we are at the genomic level - which is probably a Pandora's Box we're not
ready for yet.

Meanwhile China probably will land humans on the moon within the next four
years of whomever is the next U.S. President. That may happen before the
U.S. returns to the Moon. Either way, a "base" on the Moon by 2035 (which
is PRC's goal) even if it's robots - or humans with the risk of loss of
life) raises some challenges in terms of SIGINT, GEOINT, and the general
ability to hurl rocks into Earth's gravity well.


On Mon, Oct 7, 2024 at 9:58 AM Robert McMahon via Nnagain <
nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> The hard part is life support systems and not so much the rockets. Musk
> handwaves and claims life support is easy, both on Mars and in the
> spacecraft t/fro. The song reveals it's not so easy to keep humans healthy
> and well, even on this earth where humans evolved to survive.
>
> Musk constantly fails in his claims. His cult like following demonstrates
> Festinger's When Phrophecy Fails. Failed prophecy which, counter to
> intuition, strengthens the cult's belief in their leader. It's an illness
> and not something to promote by my judgment. I think us selecting leaders
> and peers that work from a basis of reality is they way to improve things.
> See the world as it is.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails
>
> " the team had seen that in some cases the failure of a prophecy, rather
> than causing a rejection of the original belief system, could lead
> believers to increase their personal commitment, and also increase their
> efforts to recruit others into the belief"
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 6, 2024, 6:14 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 10:46 AM Robert McMahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> SpaceX is no better than NASA by my opinion. A proper critique was done
>>> in 1970 and still applies today. See link. I grew up in Houston & with
>>> astronauts & their kids because LBJ was from Texas. Seen space projects my
>>> entire life. Focus should be on our planet and robots on the others. The
>>> ego centric view of manned space flight is an illness by my opinion.
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/wtSSP8FVUGY?feature=shared
>>>
>>
>> Hey, thx. I had heard of, but not heard, that poem before.
>>
>> As a counter, for the inspiring need for humans in space: try:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD1ixTr4JWY&t=50s
>>
>> Otherwise I do generally prefer robotic exploration. Building and flying
>> modernized versions of this would be fun:
>> https://dartslab.jpl.nasa.gov/References/pdf/2019-mars-heli.pdf
>>
>> hopefully tomorrow Hera launches!
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2024, 7:03 PM Dave Taht via Nnagain <
>>> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2024/10/02/sls-is-still-a-national-disgrace/
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Nnagain mailing list
>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>

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Re: [NNagain] an eloquent critique of NASA

[Robert McMahon]

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Agreed.

Low earth orbit for humans and our labs is fine. Our mother still protects
us there.

Humans need energy sources for our bodies and our tools. We're still
figuring that out on planet. The last Mars rover ditched the solar panels,
arguably the best panels ever made, and used a nuclear battery in its place
which has a lifetime of 14 years. Problem is it kills human.

https://science.nasa.gov/mission/mars-2020-perseverance/rover-components/

Musk was asked by a serious journalist about his development towards life
support systems. The journalist said per experience of covering space over
mant decades that these are hard. Musk responded with "no investment has
been made", "it's easy" and "it's just recycling." It's on YouTube
somewhere buried by chatGPT.

We need serious people in leadership roles. Musk rarely behaves as such.

It doesn't mean we don't set audacious goals. We need to do that too. There
is a lot that needs to be done and it requires us to use our intellect and
time wisely.

My opinion is we need better on planet comm systems. This can be a major
step towards environmental stewardship as knowledge workers don't need to
be treated like cattle and forced to work from cubes. Much of my creative
work occurs while riding a bike, which is an incredibly efficient of
transportation.

Bob






On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, 10:04 AM David Bray, PhD <david.a.bray@gmail.com>
wrote:

> To Robert's point - humans weren't designed for space environments. Robots
> do make more sense. For humans to survive space, we'll have to change who
> we are at the genomic level - which is probably a Pandora's Box we're not
> ready for yet.
>
> Meanwhile China probably will land humans on the moon within the next four
> years of whomever is the next U.S. President. That may happen before the
> U.S. returns to the Moon. Either way, a "base" on the Moon by 2035 (which
> is PRC's goal) even if it's robots - or humans with the risk of loss of
> life) raises some challenges in terms of SIGINT, GEOINT, and the general
> ability to hurl rocks into Earth's gravity well.
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 7, 2024 at 9:58 AM Robert McMahon via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> The hard part is life support systems and not so much the rockets. Musk
>> handwaves and claims life support is easy, both on Mars and in the
>> spacecraft t/fro. The song reveals it's not so easy to keep humans healthy
>> and well, even on this earth where humans evolved to survive.
>>
>> Musk constantly fails in his claims. His cult like following demonstrates
>> Festinger's When Phrophecy Fails. Failed prophecy which, counter to
>> intuition, strengthens the cult's belief in their leader. It's an illness
>> and not something to promote by my judgment. I think us selecting leaders
>> and peers that work from a basis of reality is they way to improve things.
>> See the world as it is.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails
>>
>> " the team had seen that in some cases the failure of a prophecy, rather
>> than causing a rejection of the original belief system, could lead
>> believers to increase their personal commitment, and also increase their
>> efforts to recruit others into the belief"
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 6, 2024, 6:14 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 10:46 AM Robert McMahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> SpaceX is no better than NASA by my opinion. A proper critique was done
>>>> in 1970 and still applies today. See link. I grew up in Houston & with
>>>> astronauts & their kids because LBJ was from Texas. Seen space projects my
>>>> entire life. Focus should be on our planet and robots on the others. The
>>>> ego centric view of manned space flight is an illness by my opinion.
>>>>
>>>> https://youtu.be/wtSSP8FVUGY?feature=shared
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hey, thx. I had heard of, but not heard, that poem before.
>>>
>>> As a counter, for the inspiring need for humans in space: try:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD1ixTr4JWY&t=50s
>>>
>>> Otherwise I do generally prefer robotic exploration. Building and flying
>>> modernized versions of this would be fun:
>>> https://dartslab.jpl.nasa.gov/References/pdf/2019-mars-heli.pdf
>>>
>>> hopefully tomorrow Hera launches!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2024, 7:03 PM Dave Taht via Nnagain <
>>>> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2024/10/02/sls-is-still-a-national-disgrace/
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Nnagain mailing list
>>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nnagain mailing list
>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>>
>

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