From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80D143B29D for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2024 10:47:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-oo1-f49.google.com (mail-oo1-f49.google.com [209.85.161.49]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C1F871B2C0 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2024 07:47:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com C1F871B2C0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1728312461; bh=BheRP/H7EGAlgqbVslmmGtsjCIiV/RIhaYtsuqmjEls=; h=References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:Subject:To:Cc:From; b=h6wA+xUn/VL+LSgEUgr7ptOTN4Oa1vfMDiS6ZeFoIISwSNcytVxetQ2YL8IcZp0OJ xfsKmZtLPgUEBausDfUEAhbWqDJmTCRLDxudw1/5cOeUWUZUKfzHJOcF08tWNlA64b k2WRHi/HTes4jrXY6Lyyp1g706YMJrky5mdyGmYA= Received: by mail-oo1-f49.google.com with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-5e7c88a9af8so2383567eaf.1 for ; Mon, 07 Oct 2024 07:47:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzMA08Z07X8sd0u3UpFxJ3QlKE9/52kjEyZ0Q+oQKCVRcX+Txo9 A2emHvnZV3FU4vGUDIEObmeWHqOlwMld6A9EA/uTOoxBI/1zxOlBXQWFEdpmADB0/SpCeHiV7Hv ttGDCmkutpFxXQK06d77UPz8R2go= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEKfF0+Bm6g3HRq0/GUNGcUD4pPxg7HLakJYsO0yp7Z4MNR/4fnv1kwVCa10GzPyHe4NCY+Z01qFXhQJjgoxPc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:b50b:b0:25e:de4:9621 with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-287c1e18f6emr7079006fac.24.1728312461088; Mon, 07 Oct 2024 07:47:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert McMahon Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2024 10:47:30 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: "David Bray, PhD" Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= , Dave Taht Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004deba60623e41aee" Subject: Re: [NNagain] an eloquent critique of NASA X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2024 14:47:42 -0000 --0000000000004deba60623e41aee Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agreed. Low earth orbit for humans and our labs is fine. Our mother still protects us there. Humans need energy sources for our bodies and our tools. We're still figuring that out on planet. The last Mars rover ditched the solar panels, arguably the best panels ever made, and used a nuclear battery in its place which has a lifetime of 14 years. Problem is it kills human. https://science.nasa.gov/mission/mars-2020-perseverance/rover-components/ Musk was asked by a serious journalist about his development towards life support systems. The journalist said per experience of covering space over mant decades that these are hard. Musk responded with "no investment has been made", "it's easy" and "it's just recycling." It's on YouTube somewhere buried by chatGPT. We need serious people in leadership roles. Musk rarely behaves as such. It doesn't mean we don't set audacious goals. We need to do that too. There is a lot that needs to be done and it requires us to use our intellect and time wisely. My opinion is we need better on planet comm systems. This can be a major step towards environmental stewardship as knowledge workers don't need to be treated like cattle and forced to work from cubes. Much of my creative work occurs while riding a bike, which is an incredibly efficient of transportation. Bob On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, 10:04 AM David Bray, PhD wrote: > To Robert's point - humans weren't designed for space environments. Robot= s > do make more sense. For humans to survive space, we'll have to change who > we are at the genomic level - which is probably a Pandora's Box we're not > ready for yet. > > Meanwhile China probably will land humans on the moon within the next fou= r > years of whomever is the next U.S. President. That may happen before the > U.S. returns to the Moon. Either way, a "base" on the Moon by 2035 (which > is PRC's goal) even if it's robots - or humans with the risk of loss of > life) raises some challenges in terms of SIGINT, GEOINT, and the general > ability to hurl rocks into Earth's gravity well. > > > On Mon, Oct 7, 2024 at 9:58=E2=80=AFAM Robert McMahon via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> The hard part is life support systems and not so much the rockets. Musk >> handwaves and claims life support is easy, both on Mars and in the >> spacecraft t/fro. The song reveals it's not so easy to keep humans healt= hy >> and well, even on this earth where humans evolved to survive. >> >> Musk constantly fails in his claims. His cult like following demonstrate= s >> Festinger's When Phrophecy Fails. Failed prophecy which, counter to >> intuition, strengthens the cult's belief in their leader. It's an illnes= s >> and not something to promote by my judgment. I think us selecting leader= s >> and peers that work from a basis of reality is they way to improve thing= s. >> See the world as it is. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails >> >> " the team had seen that in some cases the failure of a prophecy, rather >> than causing a rejection of the original belief system, could lead >> believers to increase their personal commitment, and also increase their >> efforts to recruit others into the belief" >> >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 6, 2024, 6:14 PM Dave Taht wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 10:46=E2=80=AFAM Robert McMahon >>> wrote: >>> >>>> SpaceX is no better than NASA by my opinion. A proper critique was don= e >>>> in 1970 and still applies today. See link. I grew up in Houston & with >>>> astronauts & their kids because LBJ was from Texas. Seen space project= s my >>>> entire life. Focus should be on our planet and robots on the others. T= he >>>> ego centric view of manned space flight is an illness by my opinion. >>>> >>>> https://youtu.be/wtSSP8FVUGY?feature=3Dshared >>>> >>> >>> Hey, thx. I had heard of, but not heard, that poem before. >>> >>> As a counter, for the inspiring need for humans in space: try: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DlD1ixTr4JWY&t=3D50s >>> >>> Otherwise I do generally prefer robotic exploration. Building and flyin= g >>> modernized versions of this would be fun: >>> https://dartslab.jpl.nasa.gov/References/pdf/2019-mars-heli.pdf >>> >>> hopefully tomorrow Hera launches! >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2024, 7:03 PM Dave Taht via Nnagain < >>>> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2024/10/02/sls-is-still-a-national= -disgrace/ >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Nnagain mailing list >>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >> > --0000000000004deba60623e41aee Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Agreed.

Low earth orbit for humans and our labs is fine. Our mother still pr= otects us there.

Humans need e= nergy sources for our bodies and our tools. We're still figuring that o= ut on planet. The last Mars rover ditched the solar panels, arguably the be= st panels ever made, and used a nuclear battery in its place which has a li= fetime of 14 years. Problem is it kills human.=C2=A0


<= /div>
Musk was asked by a serious journalist about his dev= elopment towards life support systems. The journalist said per experience o= f covering space over mant decades that these are hard. Musk responded with= "no investment has been made", "it's easy" and &qu= ot;it's just recycling." It's on YouTube somewhere buried by c= hatGPT.

We need serious = people in leadership roles. Musk rarely behaves as such.

It doesn't mean we don't set audac= ious goals. We need to do that too. There is a lot that needs to be done an= d it requires us to use our intellect and time wisely.

My opinion is we need better on planet comm = systems. This can be a major step towards environmental stewardship as know= ledge workers don't need to be treated like cattle and forced to work f= rom cubes. Much of my creative work occurs while riding a bike, which is an= incredibly efficient of transportation.=C2=A0

<= /div>
Bob





On Mon, = Oct 7, 2024, 10:04 AM David Bray, PhD <david.a.bray@gmail.com> wrote:
To Robert's point - humans weren= 9;t designed for space environments. Robots do make more sense. For humans = to survive space, we'll have to change who we are at the genomic level = - which is probably a Pandora's Box we're not ready for yet.

Meanwhile China probably will land humans on the mo= on within the next four years of whomever is the next U.S. President. That = may happen before the U.S. returns to the Moon. Either way, a "base&qu= ot; on the Moon by 2035 (which is PRC's goal) even if it's robots -= or humans with the risk of loss of life) raises some challenges in terms o= f SIGINT, GEOINT, and the general ability to hurl rocks into Earth's gr= avity well.


<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Oct 7, 2024 at 9:58=E2=80=AFAM= Robert McMahon via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
The hard part is life support systems and not so much the ro= ckets. Musk handwaves and claims life support is easy, both on Mars and in = the spacecraft t/fro. The song reveals it's not so easy to keep humans = healthy and well, even on this earth where humans evolved to survive.

Musk constantly fails in his claims= . His cult like following demonstrates Festinger's When Phrophecy Fails= . Failed prophecy which, counter to intuition, strengthens the cult's b= elief in their leader. It's an illness and not something to promote by = my judgment. I think us selecting leaders and peers that work from a basis = of reality is they way to improve things. See the world as it is.


"=C2=A0the team had seen that in some cases the failure of a proph= ecy, rather than causing a rejection of the original belief system, could l= ead believers to increase their personal commitment, and also increase thei= r efforts to recruit others into the belief"



On Sun, Oct 6, 2024, 6:14 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:




=
On Fri= , Oct 4, 2024 at 10:46=E2=80=AFAM Robert McMahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote= :
SpaceX is no better than NASA by my opinion. A proper critique was done= in 1970 and still applies today. See link. I grew up in Houston & with= astronauts & their kids because LBJ was from Texas. Seen space project= s my entire life. Focus should be on our planet and robots on the others. T= he ego centric view of manned space flight is an illness by my opinion.=C2= =A0

Hey, thx. I had heard of, but not heard, that poem before.
As a counter, for the inspiring need for humans in space: t= ry:=C2=A0https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DlD1ixTr4JWY&t=3D= 50s

Otherwise I do generally=C2=A0prefer robot= ic exploration. Building and flying modernized=C2=A0versions of this would = be fun:=C2=A0https://dartslab.jpl.nasa.gov/References/pdf= /2019-mars-heli.pdf
=

hopefully=C2=A0tomorrow Hera launches!

=C2=A0


Bob

On Thu, Oct 3, 2024, 7:03 PM = Dave Taht via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
--
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO= , LibreQos
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain


--
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnag= ain
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