From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from strange.networkguild.org (strange.networkguild.org [IPv6:2600:3c02:e000:dd::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80CDF3B29D; Sun, 15 Jun 2025 12:22:52 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iconia.com; s=strange; t=1750004572; bh=1Mr4iG9TqqwznqGKOPEFrCG9iWuWOet1nU8Sbp0vMgo=; h=References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:Subject:To:Cc:From; b=CFokrsLyDPsLr0xhB392CaGZmLZN3t+tVYewC16nZVlEcvKwUGynNM/dHRkmPQQ5a NqqBQjy12EXi4AYjBrLQNchnCgolpHEEdRStV9CIpkirkEDlY7GQ06owmQwg0Y3FCZ WCmIJKsy+Kac3JoBU8AmEZkCDJXUyqrDKn1fDHAhY6iKV82wlBsgVn0EeJ3CxNE0TO uEy64DQt9K5VxyRGeP0wlaGHtKWdWLyjn2rKnvIl1h6pPiOTALWdfS70nW3XUQRerT aU8GyMVTkiA0xiM3Tsvk4xjrkvQntuwciccba1Oqcc+5zgjL8WsLE5u6OdesQnlivl rFS1qRm3Xkm7g== Received: from auth (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by strange.networkguild.org (8.17.1.9/8.17.1.9/Debian-2+deb12u2) with ESMTPSA id 55FGMpta1373709 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 15 Jun 2025 12:22:51 -0400 Received: by mail-qt1-f171.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-4a440a72584so37413431cf.2; Sun, 15 Jun 2025 09:22:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVW1umTmfccSG3jRCCcLvgX+I8P1Qr6zXzQR6MLMURgUEXlbGlrRNKRGx8HfSJfHia4ZM1eu1EDzZBNRk9R+Iw=@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCWEItFcmGDtCOtpc7vHPcVk9YxF1uJIV6WPDfMX8x2T6k4THLIZbnBqAM4olznhkqXLY45UjcmvYYIBE6CN@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCWx7XaTwYWm0II3Tpl3oJ2r2iYX67BqtyhHDb6mOkjj20gADGChFQcWuFxHBRtT1dTdPpbHdjYEREnZSqgzBq4=@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCXg9+gU2qnhiK7lkc7CuSWoyHGDcdzafmjydoP6HqvphJEQZsvAmi35Sr9i/DR1lGCwVJLYrTTFunfKJfx0Pg==@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwRbHSUfvsqWZdsxnI0u19IjTmBY6OzH46NRsYMYylj02soRrDb OvytQlBjJFVrmnNXpBCN4eg52pHXuHAYSW+PT8UcORIXzGpjg1x7yGIbIBLUMPZO6/rDsyxM03/ +JU7o9wEKR/t81ehlTFs+abIlHR5m+pI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFaVuzUKZZPJ1I2BmQWhsDhtef+l6UD6/mixQxf7ApKSCYJdbCa/dFd7GS2ANw6A4xaUMeYyemWZ7vvvxaUQP0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:449:b0:476:790c:739a with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-4a73c53b227mr101238881cf.20.1750004571070; Sun, 15 Jun 2025 09:22:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 09:22:14 -0700 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFvNMUgeCD6CtnhfAJXVcqztRKywVGqp8asaMAH9zBAAorXf7DLZQicRc0o Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Cc: cerowrt-commits@lists.bufferbloat.net, cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net, cerowrt-users@lists.bufferbloat.net, codel-wireless@lists.bufferbloat.net, Make-Wifi-fast , Frantisek Borsik , Herbert Wolverson , =?UTF-8?Q?Robert_Chac=C3=B3n?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d06be006379eb06a" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 1.0.7 at strange.networkguild.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-BitDefender-Scanner: Clean, Agent: BitDefender Milter 3.1.7 on strange.networkguild.org, sigver: 7.99020 X-BitDefender-Spam: No (0) X-BitDefender-SpamStamp: Build: [Engines: 2.19.6.1586, Dats: 871106, Stamp: 3], Multi: [Enabled, t: (0.000007,0.016579)], BW: [Enabled, t: (0.000005), whitelisted: geoff@iconia.com], APM: [Enabled, Score: 500, t: (0.007991,0.000234), Flags: BA7B0291; NN_BEGIN_TAG_NOT_OK; NN_EXEC_H_DICTIONARY_EMAIL_ADDRESSES; NN_LEGIT_VALID_REPLY; NN_LEGIT_SUMM_400_WORDS; NN_LEGIT_S_SQARE_BRACKETS; NN_LEGIT_MAILING_LIST_TO; NN_LEGIT_ML_MAIL_LIST_ADN], RTDA: [Disabled], total: 0(775) X-BitDefender-CF-Stamp: none X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.0 required=5.0 autolearn=disabled X-Spam-Report: * -99 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP * 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.1 (2024-03-25) on strange.networkguild.org Subject: Re: [NNagain] Announcing the LibreQoS Bufferbloat Test Platform X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 16:22:52 -0000 --000000000000d06be006379eb06a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable re: *thoughts and feedback!* your https://test.libreqos.com tests of [Single User Test] & [Virtual Household Mode] both give yours truly bufferbloat grades of *A+ * whereas the https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat test gives yours truly a bufferbloat brade grade of *C* https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3Db13810f2-e999-4045-8e8= b-ab3ab8b957c5 #1.) Why/What's the difference? #2.) Who/Which one to believe=C2=BF g On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 4:58=E2=80=AFAM Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > Hello to all, > > We're excited to announce the release of the *LibreQoS Bufferbloat Test* = =E2=80=93 > an open-source bufferbloat testing solution designed specifically for ISP= s > and network operators to deploy for their customers. > > *Link* > https://test.libreqos.com > > *What Makes This Different* > > While there are several bufferbloat testing tools available, this platfor= m > addresses a critical gap: ISP-deployable infrastructure that provides bot= h > traditional testing and realistic household simulation. > > As Dave T=C3=A4ht highlighted in his influential article "What's Wrong wi= th > Speed Tests" , traditional > speed tests fail to measure what users actually experience. We tried to > address Dave's points to make a better speed test that focuses on the > metric that matters: latency under load in realistic usage scenarios. > > *Two Complementary Test Modes* > > *Single User Test Mode* > > - Traditional sequential load testing (baseline =E2=86=92 download =E2= =86=92 upload =E2=86=92 > bidirectional) > - Measures working latency and jitter during each phase > - Familiar A+ to F grading based on latency under load increases > - Comparable to existing tools like DSLReports Speed Test and Waveform > Bufferbloat Test > > > *Virtual Household Mode (The Innovation)* > > Process-isolated simulation of 4 concurrent users with authentic traffic > patterns: > > - Alex (Gaming): 1.5 Mbps constant, jitter-sensitive for competitive > gaming > - Sarah (Video Conference): 2.5 Mbps bidirectional, Teams simulation > with working latency monitoring > - Jake (Netflix HD): 25 Mbps bursts (1s on, 4s off), realistic > streaming patterns > - Computer (Background): Up to 200 Mbps continuous download, system > updates > > > Real-world relevance: Tests latency under load when multiple family > members are online simultaneously > > Advanced grading: Network fairness, jitter measurement, and per-user > working latency analysis > > *Why (not only) ISPs Need This* > > *The traditional approach of sending customers to third-party speed test > sites has limitations:* > > - No control over test methodology or server placement > - Limited correlation with customer support tickets > - Generic results that don't reflect real-world usage patterns > - No integration with ISP operational systems > > *This platform enables (not only) ISPs to:* > > - Host their own testing infrastructure with full control > - Integrate with support systems via telemetry APIs > - Provide customers with realistic household testing scenarios > - Correlate test results with network performance and customer > complaints > > > *Open Source & Community* > > The entire platform is open source and available here: > https://github.com/LibreQoE/bufferbloat_test > > We've designed this to be: > > - Easy to deploy for (not only) ISPs of any size > - Scientifically meaningful in its measurement methodology > - Realistic in its simulation of actual household usage > - Integrable with existing ISP operational workflows > > > > *Community Feedback Requested* > We'd love feedback from the bufferbloat.net community on: > > - Test methodology: Are we measuring the right metrics? > - Grading thresholds: Do our A+ to F grades align with real-world > impact? > - Virtual household scenarios: What other realistic usage patterns > should we simulate? > - ISP adoption: What barriers exist for ISP deployment? > > > > *Technical Discussion* > We'd welcome discussion about: > > - Measurement accuracy for working latency and jitter in virtual > household mode > - Traffic pattern authenticity (gaming, video conferencing, streaming) > - Grading methodology for latency under load in complex multi-user > scenarios > - Integration approaches for ISP operational systems > > > The platform represents our attempt to bridge the gap between academic > bufferbloat research and practical ISP operations, building on the > foundational work of researchers like Dave T=C3=A4ht and the broader buff= erbloat > community. We believe that widespread ISP deployment of proper bufferbloa= t > testing infrastructure will ultimately benefit the entire internet > ecosystem. > > > *Looking forward to the community's thoughts and feedback!* > Best regards, > > The LibreQoS Team > > > *In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: *1965-2025 > > https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --=20 Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com living as The Truth is True --000000000000d06be006379eb06a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
re:=C2=A0= thoughts and feedback!

your=C2=A0https://test.libreqos.c= om=C2=A0tests of [Single User Test] & [Virtual Household Mode] both= give yours truly bufferbloat grades of=C2=A0A+=C2=A0

whereas the=C2=A0https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat=C2=A0test gives yours truly a bufferbloat brade grade of=C2=A0C

#1.) Why/What's the= difference?

<= /div>
#2.) Who/Which one to believe=C2= =BF

<= font face=3D"verdana, sans-serif">g

On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 4:58=E2=80=AFAM Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <= nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.= net> wrote:
Hello to all,

We're excited to announce= the release of the=C2=A0LibreQoS Bufferbloat Test=C2=A0=E2=80=93 an open-source bufferbloat testing solution designe= d specifically for ISPs and network operators to deploy for their customers= .

Link
https://test.libreqos.com

What Makes This Different<= br>
While there are several bufferbloat testing tools available, this pl= atform addresses a critical gap: ISP-deployable infrastructure that provide= s both traditional testing and realistic household simulation.

As Da= ve T=C3=A4ht highlighted in his influential article=C2=A0"Wh= at's Wrong with Speed Tests", traditional speed tests fail to = measure what users actually experience. We tried to address Dave's poin= ts to make a better speed test that focuses on the metric that matters: lat= ency under load in realistic usage scenarios.

Two Complementary T= est Modes

Single User Test Mode
  • Traditional se= quential load testing (baseline =E2=86=92 download =E2=86=92 upload =E2=86= =92 bidirectional)
  • Measures working latency and jitter during each = phase
  • Familiar A+ to F grading based on latency under load increase= s
  • Comparable to existing tools like DSLReports Speed Test and Wavef= orm Bufferbloat Test

Virtual Household Mode (The Innova= tion)

Process-isolated simulation of 4 concurrent users with aut= hentic traffic patterns:
  • Alex (Gaming): 1.5 Mbps constant, jitte= r-sensitive for competitive gaming
  • Sarah (Video Conference): 2.5 Mb= ps bidirectional, Teams simulation with working latency monitoring
  • = Jake (Netflix HD): 25 Mbps bursts (1s on, 4s off), realistic streaming patt= erns
  • Computer (Background): Up to 200 Mbps continuous download, sys= tem updates

Real-world relevance: Tests latency under load= when multiple family members are online simultaneously

Advanced gra= ding: Network fairness, jitter measurement, and per-user working latency an= alysis

Why (not only) ISPs Need This

The traditiona= l approach of sending customers to third-party speed test sites has limitat= ions:
  • No control over test methodology or server placement
  • Limited correlation with customer support tickets
  • Generic re= sults that don't reflect real-world usage patterns
  • No integrati= on with ISP operational systems
This platform enables (not only= ) ISPs to:
  • Host their own testing infrastructure with full c= ontrol
  • Integrate with support systems via telemetry APIs
  • Pr= ovide customers with realistic household testing scenarios
  • Correlat= e test results with network performance and customer complaints

    • Open Source & Community

    The entire platform is open= source and available here:=C2=A0https://github.com/LibreQoE/b= ufferbloat_test

    We've designed this to be:
    • Easy t= o deploy for (not only) ISPs of any size
    • Scientifically meaningful = in its measurement methodology
    • Realistic in its simulation of actua= l household usage
    • Integrable with existing ISP operational workflow= s

    Community Feedback Requested

    We'd love= feedback from the buf= ferbloat.net community on:
    • Test methodology: Are we measurin= g the right metrics?
    • Grading thresholds: Do our A+ to F grades alig= n with real-world impact?
    • Virtual household scenarios: What other r= ealistic usage patterns should we simulate?
    • ISP adoption: What barr= iers exist for ISP deployment?

    Technical Discussion
    =
    We'd welcome discussion about:
    • Measurement accuracy = for working latency and jitter in virtual household mode
    • Traffic pa= ttern authenticity (gaming, video conferencing, streaming)
    • Grading = methodology for latency under load in complex multi-user scenarios
    • = Integration approaches for ISP operational systems

    The pla= tform represents our attempt to bridge the gap between academic bufferbloat= research and practical ISP operations, building on the foundational work o= f researchers like Dave T=C3=A4ht and the broader bufferbloat community. We= believe that widespread ISP deployment of proper bufferbloat testing infra= structure will ultimately benefit the entire internet ecosystem.

    = Looking forward to the community's thoughts and feedback!

    Be= st regards,

    The LibreQoS Team


In loving = memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht:=C2=A01965= -2025

https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/


http= s://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +4219194= 16714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

franti= sek.borsik@gmail.com

_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain


--
= Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com=
living as The Truth is True

--000000000000d06be006379eb06a--