From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com (mail-pg1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1532C3B29D for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2024 18:02:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-5ce2aada130so2828173a12.1 for ; Sat, 09 Mar 2024 15:02:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20230601; t=1710025374; x=1710630174; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=fmEiz9Gy1/uiwBB8gmIdVK6fhqlezwAcpQ9zihTULSs=; b=ROWR2+nEBWUwb1+fxQ+WtBa3t51YiOXYTYwjtgBMADeVhPSP758iLoMJ32YyG6jZ3O F8zk6OwqzfV8akEOGdtpGeHL9OwDazKvz1U6RusTXMuXzgNcFXAAKB0gaabEr6oxW9N2 l+tnO8qxamPoKkxZHrWb/xSTr0J3U994tSetBCMsCYTkfNoEHpe+F3DsuhZGGuhKouRA MlNQLtAp4kQg8ejNjO4FPayWfd74X8ZcMv5xYPR4RXg3Ei+N0eXoSc9N7H833bIbqblF d4Qj3pO55EtBRAQdlMtJGXeCuUvMmH97xDtjSLjCRU1Sp0rnM9zTmDdP43kY4y00EU7P mkHw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1710025374; x=1710630174; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=fmEiz9Gy1/uiwBB8gmIdVK6fhqlezwAcpQ9zihTULSs=; b=SdLRgOLBHp4TvaVN8WOtXJ0lpJHCWH5X246F8Kqe1yGOOkHu8KMU03U4/h38Zvf7AH tIz5zVD/KnjJmgLts6+BBQuvZYIVJ36Lsc3M75zngkk55i56J+IQxh1VVQL6ozTFTo7S wCTv5eF+a4kAtXbpeS2qqRQTKvDiA02gDl0vRyw+1JwWKq7qhlTnE4cgF7Ix4ymQzTcO fmN1MkxGsi36aX8yY3TvL3HrOdBf2c75DO8wkYlOlNljksT80xq1D3tGrff7fgdDfXjy QNqNbR7sFtxwOSTCnLNxA7emW5kWdV/hhR4otOLXM9rZGL6d+g3zI1NfZ3IdpwIRhHWb Cu2Q== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCW2O5vtBy9n0AoCdiE8OLfjCWfM8hteebB0GUZny4uUdP1EjHHOI+c8Q1T1YD3nd4EoYf3rXxzO8tpDfQINAUDo8erxO0xrz9bdj3Pu2A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yywt7+QWpB4Is1RtPCzVI4uqoq7vwYQmNTTj2Tu2Q/il6h/eXRX 1iwjWjMd2evI6MqfnKGgPF28+PnnneId5MWv4wTAsA0swKBKXIudiPpZX0zaOdxmadwQSfw5vCh tFu9Gb2ddfuWJd0Yh0GPEga/ZK8z3IqAbGFea X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFp288NFa3YspFWMj66gNMn7fLWK/kLzbVlvKS/2vAWZ75ZRQRdmRSa1L6pYQ1H6TTcLuEIMLnb9KjrQhfdWkI= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:ac0b:b0:29b:b6eb:3c0d with SMTP id o11-20020a17090aac0b00b0029bb6eb3c0dmr1767318pjq.36.1710025373570; Sat, 09 Mar 2024 15:02:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6BE25389766648E5AA898A86F4937D34@SRA6> <03cb3495-5f60-4a13-ae75-60bb92a5b867@rjmcmahon.com> <6DB25029C84949F28089FFF85B2F88B7@SRA6> In-Reply-To: <6DB25029C84949F28089FFF85B2F88B7@SRA6> From: Vint Cerf Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 18:02:41 -0500 Message-ID: To: dickroy@alum.mit.edu, =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspect?= =?UTF-8?Q?s_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="000000000000fe685a0613424ece" Subject: Re: [NNagain] Verizon, T-Mobile, Nokia get noisy on network slicing and net neutrality (LightReading) X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2024 23:02:55 -0000 --000000000000fe685a0613424ece Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f3a8650613424ef8" --000000000000f3a8650613424ef8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How do you know where the vehicle is that you are talking to? V On Sat, Mar 9, 2024, 17:26 Dick Roy via Nnagain < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Robert McMahon [mailto:rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com] > *Sent:* Saturday, March 9, 2024 12:58 PM > *To:* dickroy@alum.mit.edu; Dick Roy via Nnagain > *Subject:* Re: [NNagain] Verizon, T-Mobile, Nokia get noisy on network > slicing and net neutrality (LightReading) > > > > > > What is DSRC? > > *[RR] Don=E2=80=99t get me started! **LLL** Very simply it is the optima= l > technology for V2X comms (it is in over 11 billion devices on the planet > today =E2=80=A6 aka Wi-Fi at 5.9GHz =E2=80=A6 think 802.11a) that has bee= n shelved here in > the US (temporarily if I have anything to say about it) in favor of an > 8-year old technology that does not work and on which a single company ha= s > a majority of the IPR. Surprise, surprise, that company has invested 100= =E2=80=99s > of millions of dollars to execute this con job, and unfortunately it=E2= =80=99s > working. DSRC products were available more than 8 years ago and would ha= ve > been on the roads today (and in handsets) in large numbers saving lives, > but that wasn=E2=80=99t good enough for that company because they stand t= o get >10x > in royalty fees if and when the FCC mandates their technology. When the > general public becomes aware of this con, and fully understands the impac= t, > they should be and will be outraged! Think =E2=80=9CDOWNFALL: The Case Ag= ainst > Boeing=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 it=E2=80=99s exactly the same thing =E2=80=A6 = just the names have been changed. > Watch it if you haven=E2=80=99t already!* > > *Contact me if you want more details! I am looking for any and ALL help = I > can get to expose this fraud.* > > *Cheers,* > > *RR * > > > > DSRC (Dedicated Short-Range Communications) is a wireless communication > technology that enables vehicles to communicate with each other and other > road users directly, without involving cellular or other infrastructure. > DSRC is based on WiFi technology > > > > https://auto-talks.com/technology/dsrc-technology/#:~:text=3DWhat%20is%20= DSRC%3F,involving%20cellular%20or%20other%20infrastructure > . > > On Mar 9, 2024, at 12:42 PM, Dick Roy via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > > > > =E2=80=A6 > > > > As expected this technique is designed to allow exactly what NN was > designed to prohibit (treating packets differentially in the internet bas= ed > on economic considerations*)... this is IMHO why instead of calling a spa= de > a spade mobile carriers avoid describing this in a useful way, as it is > exactly about prioritisation... IMHO that will back fire, and a better > avenue would be to be open about what it enables and propose a method to > restrict the potential issues. E.g. (I am making this up on the fly, so i= t > will likely not hold up to any degree of scrutiny) by self limiting to > never commit more than X% of a cell's capacity to slicing, IFF the cell i= s > used for normal end user service at all. So admit that there is some > trade-off here, limit the fall-out, and then describe why we as a society > should embrace that trade-off. I am a bit sceptical about the whole car 2 > car communication thing (that is cars talk to cars, not people n cars tal= k > to people on cars ;) ), but if a Carrier believes there is value in that > for e.g. accident avoidance, then tell how this requires the stricter > network guarantees that (only?) slicing can deliver. > > *[RR] V2X communications for saving lives will NEVER go through ANY > carrier=E2=80=99s network in spite of what you hear. There is simply no = way anyone > is going to pay to have BSMs broadcast 10 times a second to prevent > accidents, and NO CARRIER is going to give that capacity away for free, > even if they had enough to carry the traffic, which they do not by many > orders of magnitude!!! More importantly, the information being exchanged > does NOT require a network to get where it needs to go! The 5G hype you > hear from various carriers and equipment suppliers related to V2X > communications is all powerpoint BS (to make shareholders happy). And the= re > is a ton of it out there! **JJ* > > > > RR > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --000000000000f3a8650613424ef8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
How do you know where the vehicle is that you are talking= to?

V

On Sat, Mar 9, 202= 4, 17:26 Dick Roy via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Robert McMahon [mailto:rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 9, 202= 4 12:58 PM
To: dickroy@alum.mi= t.edu; Dick Roy via Nnagain
Subject: Re: [NNagain] Veriz= on, T-Mobile, Nokia get noisy on network slicing and net neutrality (LightReadi= ng)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /span>

What is DSRC?=

[RR] Don=E2=80=99t ge= t me started! LLL= =C2=A0= Very simply it is the optimal technology for V2X comms (it is in over 11 billion devices on the planet to= day =E2=80=A6 aka Wi-Fi at 5.9GHz =E2=80=A6 think 802.11a) that has been shelved here in = the US (temporarily if I have anything to say about it) in favor of an 8-year old = technology that does not work and on which a single company has a majority of the IPR.= =C2=A0 Surprise, surprise, that company has invested 100=E2=80=99s of millions of dollars to= execute this con job, and unfortunately it=E2=80=99s working.=C2=A0 DSRC products w= ere available more than 8 years ago and would have been on the roads today (and in handsets) i= n large numbers saving lives, but that wasn=E2=80=99t good enough for that co= mpany because they stand to get >10x in royalty fees if and when the FCC manda= tes their technology.=C2=A0 When the general public becomes aware of this con, = and fully understands the impact, they should be and will be outraged! Think =E2=80= =9CDOWNFALL: The Case Against Boeing=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 =E2=80=A6 it=E2=80=99s exactly the s= ame thing =E2=80=A6 just the names have been changed.=C2=A0 Watch it if you haven=E2=80=99t already!<= /span>

Contact me if you wan= t more details!=C2=A0 I am looking for any and ALL help I can get to expose this fraud.<= /span>

Cheers,=

RR



DSRC (Dedicated Short-Range Communications) is a wireless communication technology that ena= bles vehicles to communicate with each other and other road users directly, with= out involving cellular or other infrastructure. DSRC is based on WiFi technolog= y


On Mar 9, 2024, at 12:42 PM, Dick Roy via Nnagain &l= t;nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=E2=80=A6<= /font>

=C2=A0

As expected this technique is d= esigned to allow exactly what NN was designed to prohibit (treating packets differentially in the internet based on econo= mic considerations*)... this is IMHO why instead of calling a spade a spade mob= ile carriers avoid describing this in a useful way, as it is exactly about prioritisation... IMHO that will back fire, and a better avenue would be to= be open about what it enables and propose a method to restrict the potential issues. E.g. (I am making this up on the fly, so it will likely not hold up= to any degree of scrutiny) by self limiting to never commit more than X% of a cell's capacity to slicing, IFF the cell is used for normal end user se= rvice at all. So admit that there is some trade-off here, limit the fall-out, and th= en describe why we as a society should embrace that trade-off. I am a bit sceptical about the whole car 2 car communication thing (that is cars talk to cars, not people n cars talk to people on cars ;) ), but if a Carrier believes there is value in that for e= .g. accident avoidance, then tell how this requires the stricter network guaran= tees that (only?) slicing can deliver.

[RR] V2X communications for saving lives will NEVER go through ANY carrier=E2=80= =99s network in spite of what you hear.=C2=A0 There is simply no way anyone is going to = pay to have BSMs broadcast 10 times a second to prevent accidents, and NO CARRI= ER is going to give that capacity away for free, even if they had enough to ca= rry the traffic, which they do not by many orders of magnitude!!!=C2=A0 More importantly, the information being exchanged does NOT require a network to = get where it needs to go!=C2=A0 The 5G hype you hear from various carriers and equipment suppliers related to V2X communications is all powerpoint BS (to = make shareholders happy). And there is a ton of it out there! = JJ

=C2=A0

RR<= /p> 









Nnagain mailing list

Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net

https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain<=
/u>
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Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
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