From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pf1-x432.google.com (mail-pf1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D2093B2A4 for ; Wed, 15 May 2024 20:55:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x432.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-6f44390e328so6915291b3a.2 for ; Wed, 15 May 2024 17:55:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20230601; t=1715820945; x=1716425745; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0DOgu5IatJQ2749jM9NGTFrRR9th6bE3NUoNBhS5deE=; b=FoZncB0k76IZmdL1PCb4jTZ6f46PcoWVeUF3FagsC6hvnSNn/hGIKa8rJQemz6uLUu WS51eohfEHCDE8kTohk6E4NC7r8sroEXQQICtrgsUqHgQm4QM6afkw0T015PzNwTgYvI xxKHXCOjI05IiV+xrvZQTxeIMIG1s4Hue0pR6WHxFtRQvSjt/Soww2KO3Qx4oXBtAIUS sl9FzMRAbq/xX64Se5//GgFwjiXG2T5IvlDUAcwz9WvVSPQ867EicpLg4sLW0yca9DiI 9HocBYYGo6YQNwEWcIvwFa+wYuanSYYI5pEmi+TCuclCk1Xjzu2xVZbltn+iKLSVEZ/L z1Lg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1715820945; x=1716425745; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0DOgu5IatJQ2749jM9NGTFrRR9th6bE3NUoNBhS5deE=; b=xRlqSRv9zyEL9Hovgy/fojex+N8Iocde5MrHSEJLRWkAxytnJQZRtETufUxGTnuuOi PvBfQFeBm1tVVf6d6npdImZt/jp0p78bCsBYK2449WOGdOAhaOw+QbuEJcZOOI/A4BTJ RTJOKnZOLg9C6lU5JjVRyFlPdwA6A9D4tngt9FXFhjDo/3UOTZxarj8S1d4nS6Ok6l7o mshCX82lLJ7b5OZtfhPymY4qUy16xBmcEZkbfB/Dmd+iUM7LWn+a1F9nBZYetScMqz6A dTIPlXLA8aHrfPV7MB/8CPhjIFotEv0BWWrLs2LxcPU53ZhyM0xezXs5w0mIZ/qIqxqc h6bw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUaSIJJp64Q7ng2XpVKDUXtQkTstbawL9M145izRONGyC6VxDTEyZi0kRGpNAyD1Nz8kJ6lKgNLBkTQT2dPOIhrp1IlU6G+w38X8Fzekw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzuB+o11Z68WcaPbGb/9IdaAAixYDqA/wBDIiZgS/w9/0nro4TQ siv9EWqPZqVeAmT4izi2+izDpCMXXffSKXK9mrPOyWmkpuXRowFnby1EHZSmXKMueMlmLQdMJsh 63uiTAjJBJ6jMPTnwHhxQLg5P+HIbldEcTFLlmqfgTyO9XW5fxA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG38FJvYWcTWZdi+3zwhAoptwq373l6TwJmjFicq7ZHNleE6fmMFoDFqAV8pkEqAZwPaUGiKox0eapc1YrTZ/c= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:c82:b0:6f4:4319:4cea with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-6f4e0387fe3mr30436815b3a.33.1715820944972; Wed, 15 May 2024 17:55:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Vint Cerf Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 20:55:32 -0400 Message-ID: To: karl@cavebear.com, =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspect?= =?UTF-8?Q?s_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="000000000000fa1086061887b1f7" Subject: Re: [NNagain] "FCC explicitly prohibits fast lanes, closing possible net neutrality loophole" X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 00:55:46 -0000 --000000000000fa1086061887b1f7 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ed3b2d061887b1c5" --000000000000ed3b2d061887b1c5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable An interpretation of the intent might be not so much a prohibition of various grades of service but that all grades are available on the same terms to all comers. v On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 5:43=E2=80=AFPM Karl Auerbach via Nnagain < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > As a matter of drafting the FCC has left some potholes: > > "We clarify that a BIAS [Broadband Internet Access Service] provider's > decision to speed up 'on the basis of Internet content, applications, or > services' would 'impair or degrade' other content, applications, or > services which are not given the same treatment," > > That phrase "speed up" is too vague. Does it conflict with active or fai= r > queue management? Does it prohibit things that some Ethernet NIC > "offloads" do (but which could be done by a provider) such as TCP data > aggregation (i.e. the merging of lots of small TCP segments into one big > one)? Does it prohibit insertion of an ECN bit that would have the effect > of slowing a sender of packets? Might it preclude a provider "helpfully" > dropping stale video packets that would arrive at a users video rendering > codec too late to be useful? Could there be an issue with selective > compression? Or, to really get nerdy - given that a lot of traffic uses > Ethernet frames as a model, there can be a non-trivial amount of hidden, > usually unused, bandwidth in that gap between the end of tiny IP packets > and the end of minimum length Ethernet frames. (I've seen that space used > for things like license management.) Or might this impact larger path > issues, such as routing choices, either dynamic or based on contractual > relationships - such as conversational voice over terrestrial or > low-earth-orbit paths while background file transfers are sent via fat, b= ut > large latency paths such as geo-synch satellite? If an ISP found a means > of blocking spam from being delivered, would that violate the rules? (Sa= me > question for blocking of VoIP calls from undesirable sources. It may als= o > call into question even the use of IP address blacklists or reverse path > algorithms that block traffic coming from places where it has no business > coming from.) > > The answers may be obvious to tech folks here but in the hands of > troublesome lawyers (I'm one of those) these ambiguities could be elevate= d > to be real headaches. > > These may seem like minor or even meaningless nits, but these are the > kinds of things that can be used by lawyers (again, like me) to tie > regulatory bodies into knots, which often a goal of some large > organizations that do not like regulation. > > In addition, I can't put my finger on it, but I am sensing that without > some flexibility the FCC neutrality rules may be creating a kind of no > cost, tragedy of the commons situation. Sometimes a bit of friction - co= st > - can be useful to either incentivize improvements and invention or to ma= ke > things (like spam) less desirable/more expensive to abusers. > > --karl-- > On 5/10/24 7:31 AM, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain wrote: > > "Net neutrality proponents argued that these separate lanes for different > kinds of traffic would degrade performance of traffic that isn't favored. > The final FCC order released yesterday addresses that complaint. > > "We clarify that a BIAS [Broadband Internet Access Service] provider's > decision to speed up 'on the basis of Internet content, applications, or > services' would 'impair or degrade' other content, applications, or > services which are not given the same treatment," the FCC's final order > said. > > The "impair or degrade" clarification means that speeding up is banned > because the no-throttling rule says that ISPs "shall not impair or degrad= e > lawful Internet traffic on the basis of Internet content, application, or > service." > > > https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/05/fcc-explicitly-prohibits-fast= -lanes-closing-possible-net-neutrality-loophole/ > > > All the best, > > Frank > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714> > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885> > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing listNnagain@lists.bufferbloat.nethttps://lists.bufferbloa= t.net/listinfo/nnagain > > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --=20 Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice --000000000000ed3b2d061887b1c5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
An interpretation of the intent might be not so much a pro= hibition of various grades of service but that all grades are available on = the same terms to all comers.=C2=A0

v


On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 5:43=E2=80=AFPM Karl Auerbach via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net= > wrote:
= =20 =20 =20

As a matter of drafting the FCC has left some potholes:

"We clarify that a BIAS [Broadband Internet Access Service] provider's decision to speed up 'on the basis of Internet con= tent, applications, or services' would 'impair or degrade' othe= r content, applications, or services which are not given the same treatment,"

That phrase "speed up" is too vague.=C2=A0 Does it conflic= t with active or fair queue management?=C2=A0 Does it prohibit things that some Ethernet NIC "offloads" do (but which could be done by= a provider) such as TCP data aggregation (i.e. the merging of lots of small TCP segments into one big one)? Does it prohibit insertion of an ECN bit that would have the effect of slowing a sender of packets?=C2=A0 Might it preclude a provider "helpfully= " dropping stale video packets that would arrive at a users video rendering codec too late to be useful?=C2=A0 Could there be an issue with selective compression?=C2=A0 Or, to really get nerdy - given tha= t a lot of traffic uses Ethernet frames as a model, there can be a non-trivial amount of hidden, usually unused, bandwidth in that gap between the end of tiny IP packets and the end of minimum length Ethernet frames. (I've seen that space used for things lik= e license management.)=C2=A0 Or might this impact larger path issues, such as routing choices, either dynamic or based on contractual relationships - such as conversational voice over terrestrial or low-earth-orbit paths while background file transfers are sent via fat, but large latency paths such as geo-synch satellite?=C2=A0 If an ISP found a means of blocking spam from being delivered, would that violate the rules?=C2=A0 (Same question for blocking of VoIP cal= ls from undesirable sources.=C2=A0 It may also call into question even t= he use of IP address blacklists or reverse path algorithms that block traffic coming from places where it has no business coming from.)

The answers may be obvious to tech folks here but in the hands of troublesome lawyers (I'm one of those) these ambiguities could be elevated to be real headaches.

These may seem like minor or even meaningless nits, but these are the kinds of things that can be used by lawyers (again, like me) to tie regulatory bodies into knots, which often a goal of some large organizations that do not like regulation.

In addition, I can't put my finger on it, but I am sensing that without some flexibility the FCC neutrality rules may be creating a kind of no cost, tragedy of the commons situation.=C2=A0 Sometimes = a bit of friction - cost - can be useful to either incentivize improvements and invention or to make things (like spam) less desirable/more expensive to abusers.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 --karl--

On 5/10/24 7:31 AM, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain wrote:
=20
"Net neutrality proponents argued that these separate lan= es for different kinds of traffic would degrade performance of traffic that isn't favored. The final FCC order released yesterday addresses that complaint.=C2=A0

"We clarify that a BIAS [Broadband Internet Access Servic= e] provider's decision to speed up 'on the basis of Internet content, applications, or services' would 'impair or degr= ade' other content, applications, or services which are not given the same treatment," the FCC's final order said.=C2=A0

The "impair or degrade" clarification means that spe= eding up is banned because the no-throttling rule says that ISPs "shall not impair or degrade lawful Internet traffic on the basis of Internet content, application, or service."



All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

=C2=A0

https://www.linkedin.com/in/fra= ntisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714= =C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


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Nnagain@=
lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
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Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain


--
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, = 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346
=


unti= l further notice



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