From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qt1-x830.google.com (mail-qt1-x830.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::830]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7C433CB37; Thu, 16 Nov 2023 13:11:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-qt1-x830.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-41cc44736f2so6609451cf.3; Thu, 16 Nov 2023 10:11:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1700158310; x=1700763110; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=4nW1aDbQWQEpc8RyfeVDMSBgv9SX/scJjG7UeaEhPR0=; b=JJbaeHNx9AwvgOLE0Oh7deqcO1oqTHuHaC5asT8ELSD7U4yNJO9jNExiedLGWSJVyl vyeLqZpxcajtRjkZbXVNbMdQkzmLmt86Br/pq2i0q/tkmMqknghFV+JQ6dgmid6a2M1Q I8RaQ5z4gmZjfsh7Yu2qfwtFFu5soMl/jfFwvrFM0HekzLAAk/LQO8P9C3pIuBg51OON h+l1xyaXae5bpjq3JcYLtPsUHYvvyRTHbhoBVbk8h5oOm1l5K5ZwxCTDfawZvU18sz0F YE4tlsTITlTW1qMFiqJl/Do86m13Xq7RW6oaAoTLdAyqSVugQueGlOJ4Abaf2t/Xmpct SAxA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1700158310; x=1700763110; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=4nW1aDbQWQEpc8RyfeVDMSBgv9SX/scJjG7UeaEhPR0=; b=jBTAinWFlnKsBlNZhMiN2konknlgq+S7Rqy/r9wFaJcFlByafsFzsR4EZh2ZtdQUdF wu48Sxa9pek/vg2qGA7wruQTFvyNb0QfE0x4GT/N65d4C5Ct9StBLrPDVpee8ONLUAAp 2+pA8gKV+YbwPyh3hv+a7QovaT2E2zwZ4YuisCsvAnJnOoygI2extmTVzyoLSbhMK+0M OKiFkvKycpyEprUR5Liyns4gtSW6vI4J5wFbUf7fc91P4EdLBcyN3Pg/25yykU4m5q7U +v64V8qS3gDHc8WYsAJ+/2zdqSHLv/hFuGNq7Ri181Ff9G77D80hgYucw3J2VV/pWKzw VaEA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yzzx4PhXBKGXfgVlbUOzlL4PQGRcxGJ12nk4Sl2UQi9JNyPP15W p04GRqurpwA/GVNdazLskJAoG5Qe2pyJf+itoBWA0rcg X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHWoAclyrvyV/0yGzbtLgIb41ozjvoOOPhkdoEBFYIeauwKMmXzJLlt0GoaakdehNC5mG1y+v643iEpuT3NLvc= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5a4d:0:b0:41e:20b5:fc58 with SMTP id o13-20020ac85a4d000000b0041e20b5fc58mr10875689qta.47.1700158310026; Thu, 16 Nov 2023 10:11:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Frantisek Borsik Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 19:11:13 +0100 Message-ID: To: rohan.muscat@gmail.com Cc: Dave Taht , Dave Taht via Starlink , =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspect?= =?UTF-8?Q?s_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000021af4b060a48f404" Subject: Re: [NNagain] the real state of "smart agriculture"? X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 18:11:50 -0000 --00000000000021af4b060a48f404 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is really cool playground you have there "down under", Rohan. Thanks for sharing this challenge with us. All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik@gmail.com On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 12:32=E2=80=AFAM Rohan M via Nnagain < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > Hi All, > > I am the Head of IT and Engineering for Flavorite, one of the largest > hydroponic glasshouse producers in the southern hemisphere with ~100ha > under glass. We predominantly focus on tomatoes, capsicums, cucumbers and > blueberries (the latter are not glasshouse grown). Glasshouse production = is > typically 60% more water efficient than conventional cropping, or said > another way, it uses 1/3 of the water of conventional cropping. > > We have several different environments that span large distances and use = a > myriad of different technologies to support them. > > In the glasshouses our biggest challenge is getting a signal through a > glass, a metal frame, and thick foliage which is >90% water. Foliage is > typically very dense and layered which creates a perfect sink for the > majority of signals. (eg > https://investgippsland.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Flavorite-2-e15= 74123141523-756x350.jpg > ) > > Glasshouse environments: > In the glasshouse we have long spans (varies but up to 400m/1312ft) of > centre paths that are up to 4m across and concreted (eg > https://www.atophort.com/files/News/202110/tomatoes-in-greenhouse.jpg ) > > The typical temperatures in the glasshouses ranges from about 20C (68F) t= o > 45C (113F) - more in direct sun during summer, with high humidity at time= s, > this is a barrier for a lot of devices, as it will push a processor idlin= g > at 50C across the 95C threshold and cause it to crash. > > Primary communication there is via wifi, we often use 3 unifi points (Fle= x > HD/U6 mesh) to cover the centre path, but we are trialling the unifi Mesh > Pro AC points as they have shown to cover larger areas. Wifi (or any > signal) access down rows more than about 5m off the centre path generally > is poor, but with points up high enough we have enough to keep the fresne= l > zones clear around the APs. One problem here is that we have to mount the > APs on steel uprights, which may or may not have hydronic heating tubes > nearby. > > Wireless communication for moisture sensing is done by proprietary > systems, but they typically use LoraWan, with a gateway to the main > network. These have poor propagation past 50m in these environments due t= o > the wavelengths and the foliage, so sometimes do not register correctly. > > Even though there is a 5g mobile repeater nearby (~1km away), getting > reception on any mobile network in a glasshouse is generally nigh > impossible. > > Warehouse/Packing environments: > Warehouse/Packing environments have a large amount of industrial equipmen= t > for grading, packing, weighing and sorting fruit for delivery and > logistics. These environments typically have a lot of metal on the genera= l > work floor which reflects or grounds signals. The walls and ceiling are > made of aluminum alloy which sandwiches insulation foam (as the whole are= a > is temperature controlled), there is heavy cement reinforced with rebar > fire walls between major sections, and a cement/concrete floor. The whole > structure acts as a Faraday's cage, so there are no signals going outside= , > and inside, as mentioned, there is a lot of industrial equipment. > > Size of these environments approximates the same as glasshouses - 600m x > 300m typically. > > In this environment we have approximately 60-80 wifi devices, a lot of > people who use "wi-fi calling" on mobile devices. 5g signal propagation i= n > such areas is non-existent, especially in rural areas. Boosters have been > tried, and failed, many times, with calls dropping out regularly. > > Getting any signal propagation across the environment is a challenge. > Typically how we handle this is by ceiling mounted APs, but we find that > without AP based SQM these units experience bufferbloat, which causes cal= ls > to drop out, or pause. The typical farmer mentality in these instances is > to put in a bigger AP, but this has not solved the problem (even with the > enormous stadium type units). The next stage here is to try more APs in > strategic locations. > > It should be noted that in some such environments there are multiple very > large, 16kva (or above) pumps which have large magnetic fields despite > isolation etc. The way we've managed that is by having more density of > points in those areas, which improves things but doesn't solve them. > > Blueberry fields: > Blueberry fields are similar to glasshouses, plants grow up to 1.7m > (5ft6in) and have dense foliage, similar layout to inside of a glasshouse= , > however larger areas (500m/1640ft square is typical) with varying degrees > of elevation depending on the site. Getting a signal here is also a > challenge. So far we have deployed Unifi Mesh Pro AC units at the top of > treated pine poles around 2M up, three of these units allow long distance > wifi down the main paths (circa 350-400m range each), and approximately > 10m/32ft into the blueberry rows. > > Typical applications here are tablets and phones for voip. Density of > client devices is much lower than the other environments, with 20 clients > typically per field at any time. > > > In summary - 4g/5g in these environments is of limited use due to lack of > ability to foster signal propagation and the fact that these locations ar= e > rural, which means infrastructure typically is poor in the area. > > Cheers > Rohan M > > On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 11:44=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht = wrote: > >> (I am hoping others on this list with real-world AG experience can >> chime in? I enjoy realworld stories about present solutions and pain >> points[2]) >> >> I have often been dubious of the 5g hope to dominate any major >> component of a smart ag architecture except perhaps FWA, (where >> starlink is poised and people also want to run fiber) to give it a >> good run for the money- 5g chips are too big, too hard to power, and >> too complex, and come with a monthly billing model and other >> centralized requirements that make organic evolution and solid support >> in remote environments dicy and expensive. >> >> I freely concede that I may be wrong, that with sufficient subsidies, >> we will end up hanging the equivalent of a cellphone off of every >> suitably large piece of gear and ship all the data up to the cloud, >> rather than pre-process locally. Certainly the benefits of gps and >> drones are being shown every day, along with satellite weather and >> other forms of satellite analysis. [1] >> >> But the 5g sensor market? No. Nowadays smart sensors are easily >> constructed out of wifi devices such as these which cost 5 dollars or >> less: >> >> >> https://www.amazon.com/DORHEA-Development-Microcontroller-NodeMCU-32S-ES= P-WROOM-32/dp/B086MJGFVV/ref=3Dasc_df_B086MJGFVV/ >> >> And the more meshy LoRA stuff now has much better range (4 miles), at >> low complexity and power also. >> >> then there are things like amazon sidewalk: >> https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=3DUTF8&node=3D21328123011 >> >> And airtags. >> >> [1] On the other hand rigorous analysis of the food we produce has >> recently discovered a marked decline in the percentage of nutritious >> minerals over the past 100 years. Please see: >> >> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09637486.2021.1981831 >> >> How smart is that? >> >> [2] Massive subsidy and diversion of river resources to the water >> hungry california almond industry during the last 7 years of drought >> led to the cancellation of the salmon fishing season last year. >> >> You should hear some of the invective that I used to hear aimed at >> "the f-ing vegetarians" along the docks I frequent in half moon bay. >> That I used to hear, anyway, The docks are eerily silent, the workers >> at other jobs, the boats not going out for anything except crab and >> squid. >> >> How smart is that? The California water table is a disaster, too. I >> vastly prefer salmon to almonds personally.... >> >> I guess a meta point is easily gathering tactical data is one thing, >> sharing it sanely another, deciding on how to use it strategically, >> another. >> >> -- >> :( My old R&D campus is up for sale: https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos >> > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --00000000000021af4b060a48f404 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is really cool playground you have there "down u= nder", Rohan. Thanks for sharing this challenge with us.

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)">=C2=A0

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)">Signal, Telegram, Whats= App: +421919416714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com



On Tue, Nov 14, 2023= at 12:32=E2=80=AFAM Rohan M via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Hi All,

I am the Head of IT and Engineering for Flavorite, one of the largest hydr= oponic glasshouse producers in the southern hemisphere with ~100ha under gl= ass. We predominantly focus on tomatoes, capsicums, cucumbers and blueberri= es (the latter are not glasshouse grown). Glasshouse production is typicall= y 60% more water efficient than conventional cropping, or said another way,= it uses 1/3 of the water of conventional cropping.

We have several different environments that span large distances and use = a myriad of different technologies to support them.=C2=A0

In the glasshouses our biggest challenge is getting a signal throug= h a glass, a metal frame, and thick foliage which is >90% water. Foliage= is typically very dense and layered which creates a perfect sink for the m= ajority of signals.=C2=A0 (eg=C2=A0https://investgippsland.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Flavo= rite-2-e1574123141523-756x350.jpg )=C2=A0

Glas= shouse environments:
In the glasshouse we have long spans (varies= but up to 400m/1312ft) of centre paths that are up to 4m across and concre= ted (eg https://www.atophort.com/files/News/202110= /tomatoes-in-greenhouse.jpg )=C2=A0

The typica= l temperatures in the glasshouses ranges from about 20C=C2=A0(68F) to 45C (= 113F) - more in direct sun during summer, with high humidity at times, this= is a barrier for a lot of devices, as it will push a processor idling at 5= 0C across the 95C threshold=C2=A0and cause it to crash.

Primary communication there is via wifi, we often use 3 unifi points = (Flex HD/U6 mesh) to cover the centre path, but we are trialling the unifi = Mesh Pro AC points as they have shown to cover larger areas. Wifi (or any s= ignal) access down rows more than about 5m off the centre path generally is= poor, but with points up high enough we have enough to keep the fresnel zo= nes clear around the APs. One problem here is that we have to mount the APs= on steel uprights, which may or may not have hydronic heating tubes nearby= .

Wireless communication for moisture sensing is d= one by proprietary systems, but they typically use LoraWan, with a gateway = to the main network. These have poor propagation past 50m in these environm= ents due to the wavelengths and the foliage, so sometimes do not register c= orrectly.

Even though there is a 5g mobile repeate= r nearby (~1km away), getting reception on any mobile network in a glasshou= se is generally nigh impossible.=C2=A0

Warehouse/P= acking environments:
Warehouse/Packing environments have a large = amount of industrial equipment for grading, packing, weighing and sorting f= ruit for delivery and logistics. These environments typically have a lot of= metal on the general work floor which reflects or grounds signals. The wal= ls and ceiling are made of aluminum alloy which sandwiches insulation foam = (as the whole area is temperature controlled), there is heavy cement reinfo= rced with rebar fire walls between major sections, and a cement/concrete fl= oor. The whole structure acts as a Faraday's cage, so there are no sign= als going outside, and inside, as mentioned, there is a lot of industrial e= quipment.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Size of these environments a= pproximates the same as glasshouses - 600m x 300m typically.=C2=A0

In this environment we have approximately 60-80 wifi devic= es, a lot of people who use "wi-fi calling" on mobile devices. 5g= signal propagation in such areas is non-existent, especially in rural area= s. Boosters have been tried, and failed, many times, with calls dropping ou= t regularly.

Getting any signal propagation across= the environment is a challenge. Typically how we handle this is by ceiling= mounted APs, but we find that without AP based SQM these units experience = bufferbloat, which causes calls to drop out, or pause. The typical farmer m= entality in these instances is to put in a bigger AP, but this has not solv= ed the problem (even with the enormous stadium type units). The next stage = here is to try more APs in strategic locations.

It= should be noted that in some such environments there are multiple very lar= ge, 16kva (or above) pumps which have large magnetic fields despite isolati= on etc. The way we've managed that is by having more density of points = in those areas, which improves things but doesn't solve them.

Blueberry fields:
Blueberry fields are similar to= glasshouses, plants grow up to 1.7m (5ft6in) and have dense foliage, simil= ar layout to inside of a glasshouse, however larger areas (500m/1640ft squa= re is typical) with varying degrees of elevation depending on the site. Get= ting a signal here is also a challenge. So far we have deployed Unifi Mesh = Pro AC units at the top of treated pine poles around 2M up, three of these = units allow long distance wifi down the main paths (circa 350-400m range ea= ch), and approximately 10m/32ft into the blueberry rows.

Typical applications here are tablets and phones for voip. Density o= f client devices is much lower than the other environments, with 20=C2=A0cl= ients typically per field at any time.=C2=A0=C2=A0


In summary - 4g/5g in these environments is of limited use = due to lack of ability to foster signal propagation and the fact that these= locations are rural, which means infrastructure typically is poor in the a= rea.=C2=A0

Cheers
Rohan M
On Mon, N= ov 13, 2023 at 11:44=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
(I am hoping others on this list with real-world AG experienc= e can
chime in? I enjoy realworld stories about present solutions and pain
points[2])

I have often been dubious of the 5g hope to dominate any major
component of a smart ag architecture except perhaps FWA, (where
starlink is poised and people also want to run fiber) to give it a
good run for the money- 5g chips are too big, too hard to power, and
too complex, and come with a monthly billing model and other
centralized requirements that make organic evolution and solid support
in remote environments dicy and expensive.

I freely concede that I may be wrong, that with sufficient subsidies,
we will end up hanging the equivalent of a cellphone off of every
suitably large piece of gear and ship all the data up to the cloud,
rather than pre-process locally. Certainly the benefits of gps and
drones are being shown every day, along with satellite weather and
other forms of satellite analysis. [1]

But the 5g sensor market? No. Nowadays smart sensors are easily
constructed out of wifi devices such as these which cost 5 dollars or
less:

https://www.amazon.com/DORHEA-Development-Microcontrol= ler-NodeMCU-32S-ESP-WROOM-32/dp/B086MJGFVV/ref=3Dasc_df_B086MJGFVV/

And the more meshy LoRA stuff now has much better range (4 miles), at
low complexity and power also.

then there are things like amazon sidewalk:
https://www.amazon.com/Amaz= on-Sidewalk/b?ie=3DUTF8&node=3D21328123011

And airtags.

[1] On the other hand rigorous analysis of the food we produce has
recently discovered a marked decline in the percentage of nutritious
minerals over the past 100 years. Please see:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/fu= ll/10.1080/09637486.2021.1981831

How smart is that?

[2] Massive subsidy and diversion of river resources to the water
hungry california almond industry during the last 7 years of drought
led to the cancellation of the salmon fishing season last year.

You should hear some of the invective that I used to hear aimed at
"the f-ing vegetarians" along the docks I frequent in half moon b= ay.
That I used to hear, anyway, The docks are eerily silent, the workers
at other jobs, the boats not going out for anything except crab and
squid.

How smart is that? The California water table is a disaster, too. I
vastly prefer salmon to almonds personally....

I guess a meta point is easily gathering tactical data is one thing,
sharing it sanely another, deciding on how to use it strategically,
another.

--
:( My old R&D campus is up for sale: https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab<= br> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
--00000000000021af4b060a48f404--