From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qt1-x82e.google.com (mail-qt1-x82e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 186223B29D for ; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 04:59:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82e.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-4197fa36b6aso19897051cf.3 for ; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 01:59:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698483551; x=1699088351; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=6TPK3fqxVlVSG1tcSTCxK41LEvc+y0qFQ6kOCeJaqW0=; b=ZNAVSb6TTNeNEghf8lYvWJQK/hFqqDqMphCPA7Dq11pQ0kU1Z2JFRmFlT0G7PpfpSA qmxqPdledtjfj0fShdfllZ8h7sXLkHi/iARBpmhwWB+PFPT3uPNbE18wdM3+X77uiX/0 Wh5otj7TtW7TsfK5hT723nipDozLPY+Et5fOFFyIct0hYK+o76ht6vxxdsxqRXKCEmmM NiWy3RqH1RSJPRmX09NuNV8sjXsaB5cFaOSpcX2dKxhzQQHDyzWWCPqgFooIIKx7ecE6 cZhFftAp7piLVdQ3YgDoAaprMX/W1Aje2BoRrtE9Ru3YRVJBKsh50rh8UlM1m7UBZhH5 73wg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698483551; x=1699088351; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=6TPK3fqxVlVSG1tcSTCxK41LEvc+y0qFQ6kOCeJaqW0=; b=GJN8+w7MwbG1amFchSIVmGUtbUe9cQPqQ8MNCK+nPpon0OQHHsBFuXfy5jWHpFoQxS EwnVwWGXsD8l1k1TPEq7PQIvWWHPhqjNzjhhny98SoDn3yLF3WeNWDLvQBvMkpdd5l2v 1t8m13KRXDe/bvPNczuY8EFwmZwqFIB4YEtY9RXOcfCJ+qIN/xzvHE3cu07+qgYDmiGB 3nyt/anEyKb9cIc5BoeT208ejZBuuvAXQJ8wKP1sYW87be/m8m4eSaWwemmhk+Qga3cn 8ZgqKuqTIfcp0wRNjxLhDQT2siniVgHlxqoa2Ry4KIWOR2wZzio24s/LrGXtP6N0XZPU XG/w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzZz88s8mp+r58jwhImIxCc71PLMXKqTXFXBstLe0yMmCGgFGfM RUQleK6Wqdsg14ofnoCVsRK8GjYi3iYfFThyLTrcrzi8UJ8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF4ivxwEflHOCUaW2p6dPKs1qKBt3k0044VSwiDwyKL7wZz4i7VGVibW8AGpEWfPdOzErom8jkH3JTQLXEQpvk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:1a24:b0:418:1ba6:2b37 with SMTP id f36-20020a05622a1a2400b004181ba62b37mr5355488qtb.63.1698483551201; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 01:59:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Frantisek Borsik Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 10:58:35 +0200 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= , Nathan Simington Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b9ee190608c3049a" Subject: Re: [NNagain] RFC: Public Communications on Tech Infrastructure X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 08:59:12 -0000 --000000000000b9ee190608c3049a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's a small detour on my part, but here is a list of some great engineering (not only network) feats, achieved also fast: https://patrickcollison.com/fast RE: Nathan's "*3. The future isn't evenly distributed"*, this goes especially deep for anything bufferbloat related. All the tools to get rid of it are basically out there and free to use. open-sourced, but there's so many people in the industry either willingly ignoring it because they want to sell big buffers, or they just don't know about it even (as I was sharing my experience from this week's WLPC conference here on the list). Van Jacobson was talking about it at Netdevconf 2018 really extensively: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DMAni0_lN7zE. Bufferbloat is, as we know, one of the biggest culprits that led to the NN. Have a great weekend you all. All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik@gmail.com On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 5:32=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht via Nnagain < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > 2 items: 1 - nathan's email ended up in my spam folder, and if david > had not replied I would not have seen even part of it. I had to search > on a key phrase "Branching from Dave's thread" to find it (A search > for "nnagain nathan" did not), and Google's filter described it as > "this email looks dangerous click here if you recognise the sender"... > where me I was delighted and *amazed* to see what he wrote. I imagine > he hit 90% of everyone's spam folders? Can some people check? > > I was also on a 24hr amtrak train to seattle with no connectivity, > meeting people, & playing music, and loving it. More on that later. > Stopping here overnight 'cause this californian did NOT pack clothes > suitable for my talk in canada! > > A quick note as to who is worth talking to about the present and > future of the internet might be this list: > https://www.internethalloffame.org/inductees/ - most of 'em still > answer their email, when they get it. > > More later. Thx for dropping in Nathan! There's lots to talk about! > > On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:27=E2=80=AFAM Nathan Simington > wrote: > > > > Branching from Dave's thread because I don't want to get into the > politics, but I would like to very strongly endorse Dave's remarks about > how the incredible accomplishments of network engineers are totally > unacknowledged and misunderstood (e.g., note the public policy emphasis o= n > line speed over all else.) As such, I'd like to solicit the members of th= is > list to suggest some of the greatest accomplishments in network engineeri= ng > that you've never seen properly acknowledged or appreciated. I'd like to > promote and discuss them in speeches and papers to help get more sunlight > on them. > > > > 0. Let's get network engineering some applause, please! > > Both recent and historical accomplishments are welcome. I just want to > help get more people thinking about what a difference network engineering > has made to everyone's lives! All technologies, personalities and > accomplishments welcome! > > > > Beyond this specific thing, in terms of public discourse, I'd love to > get more opinions about how to communicate to the public about the tech > underpinnings of the world we live in now, and I'd love comments on how t= o > discuss and promote any of these topics: > > > > 1. Infrastructure advances > > It would generally do a lot of good if the public were to think of > "tech" less as purely the consumer-facing side and more in terms of > fundamental architecture and infrastructure. For example, there's really = no > point talking about "AI" in the public-facing aspect of end-user LLM > experiences without first looking at how the cost of compute and transit > has gone through the floor compared to 15 years ago or so. I can't even > disentangle all the drivers, but they must include at least: > > > > New uses for GPUs driving advances and slashing prices in GPU tech > > Vast advances in back-end cloud (to pick one company, > Sawzall/Lingo/GFS/Colossus plus associated datacenters is almost invisibl= e > to the public, and I have no idea what's powering Chinese AI back-ends) > > Nuts-and-bolts development in ML/data science that are eroding the fuzz= y > boundary between ML done as a planned, discrete query by an expert over a > small, curated dataset and ML as a quasi-autonomous system not requiring > expert queries, given authority over physical devices, doing its own > ingestion, etc -- "a sufficiently large difference in quantity is itself = a > difference in quality" > > > > This stuff is particularly worth asking about because we are now at > least 30 years into what I think of as "pervasive networked personal > computing," now in wireless and appified form, and I think the public > experiences this as just advances that "happen by themselves" in the > ordinary course without seeing the jags in the step functions underwritin= g > the apparent smooth curve of progress. > > > > 2. Security in real-world systems > > Getting hacked used to mean losing data, having devices bricked, maybe > getting co-opted into a botnet, etc. Now it's a lot scarier, because we a= re > increasingly surrounded by always-on, always-connected devices whose > security infrastructure is a black box and which may be trusted with > controlling physical equipment. It's bad enough if your household > appliances are phoning home (where?) with your credit card number. It's a > whole new level of scary if there are possible APTs in the power grid and > whoever manufactured the IOT modem in a transformer is about 8 degrees of > separation from the grid operators. Even if there's no malice intended, > modern grid balancing is a new level of challenging because you may have > multiple sources of generation with immense moment-by-moment fluctuations > in inbound generation, etc., and that's just one category, leaving > groceries, ports, financial markets, building security, whatever replaces > positive train control (PTC) down the road, vehicular autonomy, industria= l > operations, etc. to one side... > > > > Panic reactions are one thing, but it would be more productive for the > public to think about what their expectations are for how to react to the= se > new capabilities and challenges and then demand that the policy sector > cashes this out into new standards by consulting with technologists. I > would therefore love advice on what you think the public needs to know. > Maybe some kind of public forum that could get press or a white paper tha= t > could get written up in an op-ed? > > > > On that note, in addition to (or instead of) commenting on this posting= , > please consider commenting on the US Cyber Trust Mark proceeding now open > at the FCC (comments close November 10th, commenting link here: > https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/search/docket-detail/23-239). If you'd like to > talk about this off-list, please drop me a line at NS@fcc.gov. I'll let > you know in advance if anything you want to say requires you to file an "= ex > parte" statement so that you don't have to worry about going on the recor= d > unintentionally. This is a fantastic opportunity for the network > engineering and computer security communities to air their concerns in a > federal forum in a way that may bind the federal government going forward= . > > > > 3. The future isn't evenly distributed > > Talking to a friend who does industrial devops reminded me of this > fantastic postmortem on healthcare.gov's rollout: > https://lobste.rs/s/igt4ez/10_year_anniversary_healthcare_gov. Obviously > I don't need to tell the career professionals this, but tech advances don= 't > necessarily propagate, and if they do, it may be at radically different > rates between different countries, companies, sectors... (If I needed a > reminder of this, I recently had to upload DICOM files to a hospital usin= g > a terrible Java applet that was obviously written so long ago that it onl= y > wanted to upload from CDs, i.e., at a time when you wouldn't have spent > hard disk space on DICOMs. I eventually managed to "persuade" it that a > flash drive was a CD.) > > > > This ties into points 1 and especially 2, because if we want the full > social benefits of all the advances modern engineering has accomplished, = we > need to get people in "nontraditional" sectors thinking about the benefit= s > of the communications and controls capabilities that are now on the table= . > Everyone should be asking why we aren't doing ML to reduce the cost and > energy consumption for making breakfast cereal, totally pedestrian stuff > like that; if the answer is juice isn't worth the squeeze, that fine, but > that's going to run on a delay because, as the healthcare.gov example > shows, high-value new practices may be invisible to a sector that would > definitely benefit from them. > > > > Sorry for the very lengthy post, and as they say on the artist formerly > known as Twitter, "my DMs are open." And thanks for everything you all do= ! > > > > All the best-- > > Nathan > > > > On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 3:22=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> > >> On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 11:21=E2=80=AFAM the keyboard of geoff goodfel= low via > >> Nnagain wrote: > >> > > >> > =E2=9E=94=E2=9E=94https://twitter.com/BrendanCarrFCC/status/17165588= 44384379163 > >> > >> Leaving aside the rhetoric, I believe the majority of these claims on > >> this part of his post: > >> > >> https://twitter.com/BrendanCarrFCC/status/1716884139226329512 > >> > >> to be true. Any one question this? > >> > >> I do wish that he showed upload speeds, and latency under load, and, > >> acknowledged some mistakes, at least, and did not claim perfect > >> success. Also individual states had stepped up to institute their own > >> rules, and I would love to see a comparison of those stats vs those > >> that didn=C2=B4t. > >> > >> The COVID thing I am most fiercely proud of, as an engineer, is we > >> took an internet only capable of postage stamp 5 frame per sec[1] > >> videoconferencing to something that the world, as a whole, relied on > >> to keep civilization running only 7 years later, in the face of > >> terrible odds, lights out environments, scarce equipment supplies, and > >> illness. ISPs big and small helped too - Their people climbed towers, > >> produced better code, rerouted networks, and stayed up late fighting > >> off DDOSes. People at home shared their wifi and knowledge of how to > >> make fiddly things on the net work well, over the internet - > >> > >> Nobody handed out medals for keeping the internet running, I do not > >> remember a single statement of praise for what we did over that > >> terrible time. No one ever looks up after a productive day after a > >> zillion productive clicks and says (for one example) "Thank you Paul > >> Vixie and Mokapetris for inventing DNS and Evan Hunt(bind) and Simon > >> Kelly(dnsmasq) for shipping dns servers for free that only get it > >> wrong once in a while, and then recover so fast you don=C2=B4t notice"= - > >> there are just endless complaints from those for whom it is not > >> working *right now* the way they expect. > >> > >> There are no nobel prizes for networking. But the scientists, > >> engineers, sysadmins and SREs kept improving things, and are keeping > >> civilization running. It is kind of a cause for me - I get very irked > >> at both sides whining when if only they could walk a mile in a > >> neteng=C2=B4s shoes. I get respect from my neighbors at least, sometim= es > >> asked to fix a laptop or set up a router... and I still share my wifi. > >> > >> If there was just some way to separate out the ire about other aspects > >> of how the internet is going south (which I certainly share), and > >> somehow put respect for those in the trenches that work on keeping the > >> Net running, back in the public conversation, I would really love to > >> hear it. > >> > >> [1] Really great talk on networking by Van Jacobson in 2012, both > >> useful for its content, and the kind of quality we could only achieve > >> then: https://archive.org/details/video1_20191129 > >> > >> > -- > >> > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com > >> > living as The Truth is True > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Nnagain mailing list > >> > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Oct 30: > https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html > >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nnagain mailing list > >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > > > > > > > -- > > Nathan Simington > > cell: 305-793-6899 > > > > -- > Oct 30: > https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --000000000000b9ee190608c3049a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It's a small detour on my part, but here is a list of = some great engineering (not only network) feats, achieved also fast:
https://patric= kcollison.com/fast

RE: Nathan's "3= . The future isn't evenly distributed", this goes especially d= eep for anything bufferbloat related. All the tools to get rid of it are ba= sically out there and free to use. open-sourced, but there's so many pe= ople in the industry either willingly ignoring it because they want to sell= big buffers, or they just don't know about it even (as I was sharing m= y experience from this week's WLPC conference here on the list). Van Ja= cobson was talking about it at Netdevconf 2018 really extensively:=C2=A0https://www.youtube.= com/watch?v=3DMAni0_lN7zE. Bufferbloat is, as we know, one of the bigge= st culprits that led to the NN.

Have a great weeke= nd you all.

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Fr= ank) Borsik

=C2=A0

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantise= kborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +420775= 230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com

<= br>

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 5:32=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht via Nnagain <= nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
2 items: 1 -= nathan's email ended up in my spam folder, and if david
had not replied I would not have seen even part of it. I had to search
on a key phrase "Branching from Dave's thread" to find it (A = search
for "nnagain nathan" did not), and Google's filter described = it as
"this email looks dangerous click here if you recognise the sender&quo= t;...
where me I was delighted and *amazed* to see what he wrote. I imagine
he hit 90% of everyone's spam folders? Can some people check?

I was also on a 24hr=C2=A0 amtrak train to seattle with no connectivity, meeting people, & playing music, and loving it. More on that later.
Stopping here overnight 'cause this californian did NOT pack clothes suitable for my talk in canada!

A quick note as to who is worth talking to about the present and
future of the internet might be this list:
https://www.internethalloffame.org/inductees/ - mos= t of 'em still
answer their email, when they get it.

More later. Thx for dropping in Nathan! There's lots to talk about!

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:27=E2=80=AFAM Nathan Simington <nsimington@gmail.com> wr= ote:
>
> Branching from Dave's thread because I don't want to get into = the politics, but I would like to very strongly endorse Dave's remarks = about how the incredible accomplishments of network engineers are totally u= nacknowledged and misunderstood (e.g., note the public policy emphasis on l= ine speed over all else.) As such, I'd like to solicit the members of t= his list to suggest some of the greatest accomplishments in network enginee= ring that you've never seen properly acknowledged or appreciated. I'= ;d like to promote and discuss them in speeches and papers to help get more= sunlight on them.
>
> 0. Let's get network engineering some applause, please!
> Both recent and historical accomplishments are welcome. I just want to= help get more people thinking about what a difference network engineering = has made to everyone's lives! All technologies, personalities and accom= plishments welcome!
>
> Beyond this specific thing, in terms of public discourse, I'd love= to get more opinions about how to communicate to the public about the tech= underpinnings of the world we live in now, and I'd love comments on ho= w to discuss and promote any of these topics:
>
> 1. Infrastructure advances
> It would generally do a lot of good if the public were to think of &qu= ot;tech" less as purely the consumer-facing side and more in terms of = fundamental architecture and infrastructure. For example, there's reall= y no point talking about "AI" in the public-facing aspect of end-= user LLM experiences without first looking at how the cost of compute and t= ransit has gone through the floor compared to 15 years ago or so. I can'= ;t even disentangle all the drivers, but they must include at least:
>
> New uses for GPUs driving advances and slashing prices in GPU tech
> Vast advances in back-end cloud (to pick one company, Sawzall/Lingo/GF= S/Colossus plus associated datacenters is almost invisible to the public, a= nd I have no idea what's powering Chinese AI back-ends)
> Nuts-and-bolts development in ML/data science that are eroding the fuz= zy boundary between ML done as a planned, discrete query by an expert over = a small, curated dataset and ML as a quasi-autonomous system not requiring = expert queries, given authority over physical devices, doing its own ingest= ion, etc -- "a sufficiently large difference in quantity is itself a d= ifference in quality"
>
> This stuff is particularly worth asking about because we are now at le= ast 30 years into what I think of as "pervasive networked personal com= puting," now in wireless and appified form, and I think the public exp= eriences this as just advances that "happen by themselves" in the= ordinary course without seeing the jags in the step functions underwriting= the apparent smooth curve of progress.
>
> 2. Security in real-world systems
> Getting hacked used to mean losing data, having devices bricked, maybe= getting co-opted into a botnet, etc. Now it's a lot scarier, because w= e are increasingly surrounded by always-on, always-connected devices whose = security infrastructure is a black box and which may be trusted with contro= lling physical equipment. It's bad enough if your household appliances = are phoning home (where?) with your credit card number. It's a whole ne= w level of scary if there are possible APTs in the power grid and whoever m= anufactured the IOT modem in a transformer is about 8 degrees of separation= from the grid operators. Even if there's no malice intended, modern gr= id balancing is a new level of challenging because you may have multiple so= urces of generation with immense moment-by-moment fluctuations in inbound g= eneration, etc., and that's just one category, leaving groceries, ports= , financial markets, building security, whatever replaces positive train co= ntrol (PTC) down the road, vehicular autonomy, industrial operations, etc. = to one side...
>
> Panic reactions are one thing, but it would be more productive for the= public to think about what their expectations are for how to react to thes= e new capabilities and challenges and then demand that the policy sector ca= shes this out into new standards by consulting with technologists. I would = therefore love advice on what you think the public needs to know. Maybe som= e kind of public forum that could get press or a white paper that could get= written up in an op-ed?
>
> On that note, in addition to (or instead of) commenting on this postin= g, please consider commenting on the US Cyber Trust Mark proceeding now ope= n at the FCC (comments close November 10th, commenting link here: https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/search/docket-detail/23-239). If you'd like to talk about this off-list, please drop me a line at= NS@fcc.gov. I'll l= et you know in advance if anything you want to say requires you to file an = "ex parte" statement so that you don't have to worry about go= ing on the record unintentionally. This is a fantastic opportunity for the = network engineering and computer security communities to air their concerns= in a federal forum in a way that may bind the federal government going for= ward.
>
> 3. The future isn't evenly distributed
> Talking to a friend who does industrial devops reminded me of this fan= tastic postmortem on healthcare.gov's rollout: https://lobste.rs/s/igt4ez/10_year_anniversary_healthcare_gov. Obviously I don't need to tell the career professionals this, but t= ech advances don't necessarily propagate, and if they do, it may be at = radically different rates between different countries, companies, sectors..= . (If I needed a reminder of this, I recently had to upload DICOM files to = a hospital using a terrible Java applet that was obviously written so long = ago that it only wanted to upload from CDs, i.e., at a time when you wouldn= 't have spent hard disk space on DICOMs. I eventually managed to "= persuade" it that a flash drive was a CD.)
>
> This ties into points 1 and especially 2, because if we want the full = social benefits of all the advances modern engineering has accomplished, we= need to get people in "nontraditional" sectors thinking about th= e benefits of the communications and controls capabilities that are now on = the table. Everyone should be asking why we aren't doing ML to reduce t= he cost and energy consumption for making breakfast cereal, totally pedestr= ian stuff like that; if the answer is juice isn't worth the squeeze, th= at fine, but that's going to run on a delay because, as the healthcare.gov<= /a> example shows, high-value new practices may be invisible to a sector th= at would definitely benefit from them.
>
> Sorry for the very lengthy post, and as they say on the artist formerl= y known as Twitter, "my DMs are open." And thanks for everything = you all do!
>
> All the best--
> Nathan
>
> On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 3:22=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht via Nnagain <nnagain@list= s.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 11:21=E2=80=AFAM the keyboard of geoff goo= dfellow via
>> Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > =E2=9E=94=E2=9E=94https:/= /twitter.com/BrendanCarrFCC/status/1716558844384379163
>>
>> Leaving aside the rhetoric, I believe the majority of these claims= on
>> this part of his post:
>>
>> https://twitter.com/BrendanCar= rFCC/status/1716884139226329512
>>
>> to be true. Any one question this?
>>
>> I do wish that he showed upload speeds, and latency under load, an= d,
>> acknowledged some mistakes, at least, and did not claim perfect >> success. Also individual states had stepped up to institute their = own
>> rules, and I would love to see a comparison of those stats vs thos= e
>> that didn=C2=B4t.
>>
>> The COVID thing I am most fiercely proud of, as an engineer, is we=
>> took an internet only capable of postage stamp 5 frame per sec[1]<= br> >> videoconferencing to something that the world, as a whole, relied = on
>> to keep civilization running only 7 years later, in the face of >> terrible odds, lights out environments, scarce equipment supplies,= and
>> illness. ISPs big and small helped too - Their people climbed towe= rs,
>> produced better code, rerouted networks, and stayed up late fighti= ng
>> off DDOSes. People at home shared their wifi and knowledge of how = to
>> make fiddly things on the net work well, over the internet=C2=A0 -=
>>
>> Nobody handed out medals for keeping the internet running, I do no= t
>> remember a single statement of praise for what we did over that >> terrible time. No one ever looks up after a productive day after a=
>> zillion productive clicks and says (for one example) "Thank y= ou Paul
>> Vixie and Mokapetris for inventing DNS and Evan Hunt(bind)=C2=A0 a= nd Simon
>> Kelly(dnsmasq) for shipping dns servers for free that only get it<= br> >> wrong once in a while, and then recover so fast you don=C2=B4t not= ice" -
>> there are just endless complaints from those for whom it is not >> working *right now* the way they expect.
>>
>> There are no nobel prizes for networking.=C2=A0 But the scientists= ,
>> engineers, sysadmins and SREs kept improving things, and are keepi= ng
>> civilization running. It is kind of a cause for me - I get very ir= ked
>> at both sides whining when if only they could walk a mile in a
>> neteng=C2=B4s shoes. I get respect from my neighbors at least, som= etimes
>> asked to fix a laptop or set up a router... and I still share my w= ifi.
>>
>> If there was just some way to separate out the ire about other asp= ects
>> of how the internet is going south (which I certainly share), and<= br> >> somehow put respect for those in the trenches that work on keeping= the
>> Net running, back in the public conversation, I would really love = to
>> hear it.
>>
>> [1] Really great talk on networking by Van Jacobson in 2012, both<= br> >> useful for its content, and the kind of quality we could only achi= eve
>> then: https://archive.org/details/video1_201911= 29
>>
>> > --
>> > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
>> > living as The Truth is True
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Nnagain mailing list
>> > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/n= nagain
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Oct 30: https://netdevc= onf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nnagain mailing list
>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagai= n
>
>
>
> --
> Nathan Simington
> cell: 305-793-6899



--
Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/= 0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
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