From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qt1-x82a.google.com (mail-qt1-x82a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B19A3CB37; Mon, 11 Dec 2023 05:07:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82a.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-4259024f6daso21703381cf.3; Mon, 11 Dec 2023 02:07:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1702289220; x=1702894020; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=8TmduZ/lI3ljvLwAds7Xdlb6CZUbncoPEiFOVh01W5Y=; b=RMsCQbBDhzrcjKtP6dA7f1+/LJie7xyUunPtUa4BcEyfQMswXQP5rJ1l2PlyBwUeiO j+m/57ix4LDc5Uu3x19pNkqS/iHkDozU3hUMUWSz7GdcgP+G1yWZnG/71x4UQJUh+yKY xnnmWMjqdQmSLQAAhVNc+Nz8Uv2qspn9aWEqm6B5CBC4X3HFNCDQ1yqw8YkgaqWt9YTr 3QnQYcdtu8cim/E76UZrzHxDxsJTS2syW5zU0XH6S5u3LOFGuXc/pHgJYRj+HIyqJtgh /VMkkTYcytliq5sQ/b+pBKBTcz10LeYd0IqcDJCmsG1D7QMlmRhK9+kXhQ75q81XgCvQ at9w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1702289220; x=1702894020; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=8TmduZ/lI3ljvLwAds7Xdlb6CZUbncoPEiFOVh01W5Y=; b=dXiUaHtSpyFpmfWIQvfN8uIyygjeuvfnhzvidSGOEed5HCTKoNAJ1W+8b0Hj+aDjA+ vgyvP1pbDKqwAit/EmWDPNn6Aosop8v3Rja+MoDE6Qt3hzVCIX+/fVrOyHZGcZe2GDD1 RVCGQaC7DUIk6/Ryr5KJWDs2ZrLWIqgL+2XI6m6Quqgq5lTlEeSZnC6yft78F/2VElXh PmlyYSHoDu0i1hMb1oXEkZZ19Od5Lz7hqT63xlqg7m59CctaonshBUlFoZ0NzE+ZVa6W Uci31lqCdLIN/ZqH5BXTqDzJtPx71NTSLbOnc7yqfEx3Ctqxm7ugr0Zk7/Nj5RcD3aOm Mstw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxxfnwVzcZWM5YRU7QmdHlOr2T9Zi4ESI5Z5WMG7wMPrfaMhXii SI/ys6fXPbtBr76JrCNm0YgJewgkDpXRkTXgYkE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHzZbW97PuY6LrQRpiFIxF0ekgmbyul7kIQwUwgghVR8Z3nxYEnn3A52aTO455qHnMlf/8p+yFcmMX6/I5x2S0= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5942:0:b0:425:9531:cb97 with SMTP id 2-20020ac85942000000b004259531cb97mr2626002qtz.28.1702289220480; Mon, 11 Dec 2023 02:07:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <826a0d77-b6b8-423d-a094-93d75840fa90@rjmcmahon.com> <4C2CA220-A7EF-4198-BE6C-A2FC979A1F8D@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <4C2CA220-A7EF-4198-BE6C-A2FC979A1F8D@gmx.de> From: Frantisek Borsik Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 11:18:36 +0100 Message-ID: To: Sebastian Moeller , bloat Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004ab420060c391867" Subject: Re: [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 10:07:01 -0000 --0000000000004ab420060c391867 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =E2=80=A6and I=E2=80=99m adding NN again, because: No matter which evil end game is actually the one, it will create a quite a havoc. Seeing, for example Netflix, participating in L4S trail (they said it was for their cloud gaming, while at IETF 118) is in my mind the same like seeing a capitalist, an entrepreneur selling a rope to a bloodthirsty communist that want to create a noose to hang him on it :-) but if one don=E2=80=99t see/hear evil=E2=80=A6there is no hope. All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik@gmail.com On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 at 10:52 AM, Sebastian Moeller wrote: > Hi Frantisek, > > steering this to the bloat list, as I have a hunch my response might not > be appropriate for the wide audience in NNagain even though this can have > NN ramifications. > > > > On Dec 11, 2023, at 10:50, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > > Top story on HN: > > > > h++ps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D38597744 > > > > My pick for top comment: > > > > > > > > > > A possible L4S end game? =F0=9F=98=81 > > Unlikely, as that would e.g. violate EU directive 2015/2120 too blatantly= . > My take is more subtle, L4S is essentially a technique that only works we= ll > for short RTTs and the end game is to make datacenter space inside > eyeball-ISPs much more desirable and hence yielding higher prices... L4S > effectively increases TCPs existing RTT bias* and hence makes long range > L4S connections undesirable/under-performing, and that implies that conte= nt > providers that want to use L4S will need to get their servers/CDNs close = to > the eye-balls. But hey, I would love to be wrong and ISPs jus do this out > of the goodness of their hearts... (only then I would politely ask the to > deploy a flow queueing AQM instead of DualQ, as that in one swoop will > solve a ship-load of L4S problems). > > Regards > Sebastian > > > *) L4S argues that this is not an increase, but that due to removing > traditional TCP's excess queueing it just reveals TCPs inherent RTT bias; > IMHO that is a bull shit argument since the root cause is not important, > what matters is that with L4S RTT bias becomes measurably worse. > > > P.S.: I think my mail provider marks outgoing mails with too many links a= s > SPAM, so I need to make the URLs invisible, and I believe replacing the t= 's > in h t t p with plus signs does the trick... > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > Frank > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > > h++ps://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > > > > > On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 7:22 PM, Robert McMahon via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > Sorry, this isn't a very good technical analysis. It's a push agenda fo= r > AQM. I get that many people's egos are tied to their belief that my > algorithm came down from God himself. It's not true though. > > > > > > Bob > > On Dec 10, 2023, at 3:12 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > I find it alarming for the future of internet that there is a trend to > > use elbowing techniques to squeeze metrics out at the expense of all > > other flows. We know that when nobody plays fair the arms race ends > > badly. > > > > Best regards, > > Sauli > > > > On 12/10/23, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain > wrote: > > Well, to be completely honest, I would say its about general public, > really > > - it=E2=80=99s an article in The Verge :-) > > > > But yeah. Here=E2=80=99s something they should address: > > > > h++ps://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#key-findings > > > > In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a biggest L4S > > problem: > > h++ps:// > www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-activit= y-7128317873571176448-GWAX > > > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > Frank > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > > h++ps://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > > > > > On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:48 AM, Matt Mathis via Nnagain < > > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > > About L4S > > > > h++ps:// > www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwi= dth > > > > It says something about their target audience that they feel they need > to > > explain bytes vs bits. > > > > Thanks, > > --MM-- > > Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use for= ce > > to apply it to others. > > > > Matt Mathis (Email is best) > > Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call. > > > > > > Nnagain mailing list > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > > > > > > > Nnagain mailing list > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > _______________________________________________ > > Nnagain mailing list > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > _______________________________________________ > > Nnagain mailing list > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > --0000000000004ab420060c391867 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=E2=80=A6and I=E2=80=99m adding NN again, because:
<= div dir=3D"auto">
No matter which evil end game = is actually the one, it will create a quite a havoc.

Seeing, for example Netflix, participating in = L4S trail (they said it was for their cloud gaming, while at IETF 118) is i= n my mind the same like seeing a capitalist, an entrepreneur selling a rope= to a bloodthirsty communist that want to create a noose to hang him on it = :-) but if one don=E2=80=99t see/hear evil=E2=80=A6there is no hope.
<= div dir=3D"auto">

All the best,

Frank
Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

https://www.linkedin.co= m/in/frantisekborsik
Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp:=C2=A0+421919416714= =C2=A0
iMessage, mobile:=C2=A0+420775230885
Skype: casioa5302ca
frantisek.borsik@gmail.com<= br>


On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 at 10:52 AM, Sebasti= an Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> w= rote:
Hi Frantisek,

steering this to the bloat list, as I have a hunch my response might not be= appropriate for the wide audience in NNagain even though this can have NN = ramifications.


> On Dec 11, 2023, at 10:50, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.buff= erbloat.net> wrote:
>
> Top story on HN:
>
> h++ps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D38597744
>
> My pick for top comment:
>
> <image_6487327.JPG>
>
>
> A possible L4S end game? =F0=9F=98=81

Unlikely, as that would e.g. violate EU directive 2015/2120 too blatantly. = My take is more subtle, L4S is essentially a technique that only works well= for short RTTs and the end game is to make datacenter space inside eyeball= -ISPs much more desirable and hence yielding higher prices... L4S effective= ly increases TCPs existing RTT bias* and hence makes long range L4S connect= ions undesirable/under-performing, and that implies that content providers = that want to use L4S will need to get their servers/CDNs close to the eye-b= alls. But hey, I would love to be wrong and ISPs jus do this out of the goo= dness of their hearts... (only then I would politely ask the to deploy a fl= ow queueing AQM instead of DualQ, as that in one swoop will solve a ship-lo= ad of L4S problems).

Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sebastian


*) L4S argues that this is not an increase, but that due to removing tradit= ional TCP's excess queueing it just reveals TCPs inherent RTT bias; IMH= O that is a bull shit argument since the root cause is not important, what = matters is that with L4S RTT bias becomes measurably worse.


P.S.: I think my mail provider marks outgoing mails with too many links as = SPAM, so I need to make the URLs invisible, and I believe replacing the t&#= 39;s in h t t p with plus signs does the trick...


>
>
> All the best,
>
> Frank
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>
> h++ps://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> Skype: casioa5302ca
> franti= sek.borsik@gmail.com
>
>
> On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 7:22 PM, Robert McMahon via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.b= ufferbloat.net> wrote:
> Sorry, this isn't a very good technical analysis. It's a push = agenda for AQM. I get that many people's egos are tied to their belief = that my algorithm came down from God himself. It's not true though. >
>
> Bob
> On Dec 10, 2023, at 3:12 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.b= ufferbloat.net> wrote:
> I find it alarming for the future of internet that there is a trend to=
> use elbowing techniques to squeeze metrics out at the expense of all > other flows. We know that when nobody plays fair the arms race ends > badly.
>
> Best regards,
> Sauli
>
> On 12/10/23, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>=C2=A0 Well, to be completely honest, I would say its about general pub= lic, really
>=C2=A0 - it=E2=80=99s an article in The Verge :-)
>
>=C2=A0 But yeah. Here=E2=80=99s something they should address:
>
>=C2=A0 h++ps://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#key-fi= ndings
>
>=C2=A0 In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a bigges= t L4S
>=C2=A0 problem:
>=C2=A0 h++ps://www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmor= ton-l4s-ietf118-activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX
>
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 All the best,
>
>=C2=A0 Frank
>=C2=A0 Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>
>=C2=A0 h++ps://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik=
>=C2=A0 Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>=C2=A0 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>=C2=A0 Skype: casioa5302ca
>=C2=A0 = frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>
>
>=C2=A0 On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:48 AM, Matt Mathis via Nnagain <
>=C2=A0 nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 About L4S
>
>=C2=A0 h++ps://www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwi= dth
>
>=C2=A0 It says something about their target audience that they feel the= y need to
>=C2=A0 explain bytes vs bits.
>
>=C2=A0 Thanks,
>=C2=A0 --MM--
>=C2=A0 Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth&q= uot; and use force
>=C2=A0 to apply it to others.
>
>=C2=A0 Matt Mathis=C2=A0 (Email is best)
>=C2=A0 Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you mu= st call.
>
>
>=C2=A0 Nnagain mailing list
>=C2=A0 Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>=C2=A0 h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnaga= in
>
>
>
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nna= gain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nna= gain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nna= gain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain

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