From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ej1-x62a.google.com (mail-ej1-x62a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C7A13B2A4 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 13:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x62a.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-aaee2c5ee6eso182167266b.1 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 10:00:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1741885204; x=1742490004; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=7DzHKxMYStRfretAzD0C8StHho74CVG0KfiCOFFSusE=; b=KLXZSo31a6bXo08iR4tM6ePI8LidfuYouiKP5LAuumy1q9gSL61H8XTpK58ex+PFz9 FHxz5Wify+gM239e+SkYt2HkLUuX0QoMBaI8gEeeLv+qwQ/sqsD4sqI7d6v/FT9MlJZl cikRvhzS5cdyFKSNkjRmXOrDXznWJeGNgApprh7J9f0sowpoZcvdbwZB+i7NwiQSDOAI AxNpPjE12MVRAubhUtSlFh0JkVfMTF5wyx+/qE2w56Iu10uQR3mx8DB5e3J7lwDtcvWE 1x/kc2LNcGfSMXtId7choe09tK61JS7iUFF6AmFDSn6I3gqQRPRRxerE0aD7s/2CauVv puYw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1741885204; x=1742490004; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=7DzHKxMYStRfretAzD0C8StHho74CVG0KfiCOFFSusE=; b=DPUH1K8FL8dqpUXPOG5ZpasxUJ2mMyzo7OP7DDcey9hJa788SsmWUyTuOFGbjZSc9N /yXpylxRQtVHgSZynblPrAIr1hM+1ayXE4PS7hgzu5jXtfrcSe0gllt3eNCdmO/RJoRW oXPqNXgKBMU1XmdaNK/7ODZfLAilObFF6pRyt6eZKrOOH+wwAY9XfSDbOdasY/1sOsNs 40klfZRk+/zIbArDpmIvsXEqsp6Rfp/j9iOL4uD+IBgXn9abee+4AXHUpaMSQRii4u/b 5pJwpX/SQE8Qh7EJpnCUhrubOVf9CsPfCPhHBl3hWMvpQ4NrA0yoYWxM0ZI64+9IWC72 hrPw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyQSRpIgvndtwMROQBqMv0wEfR6Ko+xtE5hRv/g63swHfw+hfoq bDoSI0Qjwrsowru8+b1p+61rGPb4j9r3YBnCHbmuHiPjwOv8C/kuaedpI+J+0xGc5HCdD831AbC pEDPrZ3ycZaQfrnytV8np214v/yg= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncunKr+nm279pdWmJOnWicpAE5JEW/MyoyZhkU3qo9kujtQuLko4BYGIfdL3c8o 9WRQ5VqmD+kOn7hT98mfOxP3nTaj1Tr/98rSsS0lm9fvYqNw/3xdaWvH558/x5QJO0QG6l3VSYa ZeHj/XVgJP76WwmQllapHkx0MN5Uc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGOl4QBejCS8WxiRTOaz1ofGBYYvVkut9tQIioCrzs+7Q69Xd25xd4Zf6NqtrmwOi9NblwHr0uR5SLUEzGHyX8= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:2cc5:b0:abf:768f:9a1f with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-ac3292e6f0bmr12189666b.42.1741885203524; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 10:00:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Frantisek Borsik Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 18:00:40 +0100 X-Gm-Features: AQ5f1JqDvq-yMmagsbJurKVI9M5kPYAhmS8TqjpIX7Cafr8Nje_k5kUT9ICWAs8 Message-ID: To: Robert McMahon Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cbb99f06303c40d5" Subject: Re: [NNagain] FCC - delete, delete, delete X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 17:00:05 -0000 --000000000000cbb99f06303c40d5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Bob, I don't think that improving latency is about mandating of a specific algorithm - it's about an improvements to broadband definition. Broadband that servers the needs of us all today, goes beyond 100/20, it's should include a low latency, low consistent jitter. Now, what are the right numbers, that's another discussion. But it's a discussion we need to have. I would certainly let market to decide on the tools/algorithms that will achieve those numbers - be it a Quality of Experience middle box (like LibreQoS, Preseem, Bequand/Cambium Networks QoE, Paraqum or Sandvine), L4S etc. As for the other issues that need some love - for example, making vendors to update kernel and provide updates to routers they sold, that's a good thing. All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik@gmail.com On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 5:33=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon via Nnagain < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > > As for "what the FCC can do", "dissolve itself" comes to mind. AFAIK, > it's been over a decade since they have done anything helpful or useful f= or > any American citizen who isn't the head of a major corporation. If you > delete the entire organization, there will be no one around to enforce > whatever regs are still on the books so who cares? ... and you'll save > another few 10's of millions of dollars annually which will fit nicely in > the pockets of the "good folks", aka FODT. =F0=9F=98=8A=F0=9F=98=8A=F0=9F= =98=8A > > > I worked with a CA state regulator in a tech support role prior to > so-called broadband (actually, internet access beyond dial-up MODEMs) > This was post 1996 telco act, just prior to the dot com bubble. The > lobbyists at the time disliked having 50 States regulating things. > They pushed made it so the 5 commissioners on the FCC became the > primary regulators. Many call this regulatory capture. > > Unfortunately, I don't think we can get rid of the FCC. Our utility > poles are mostly regulated by them as one example. > > I also don't think the FCC can mandage any specific AQM algorithm. > That's a long term disaster in the making for sure. Let network > engineers and the market battle that out. > > Bob > > PS. Good to hear from you RR - i hope all is well. I've got a Fi-Wi > project you may be interested in - not sure. > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --000000000000cbb99f06303c40d5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Bob,

I don't think t= hat improving latency is about mandating of a specific algorithm - it's= about an improvements to broadband definition.=C2=A0
Broadband t= hat servers the needs of us all today, goes beyond 100/20, it's should = include a low latency, low consistent jitter.
Now, what are the r= ight numbers, that's another discussion. But it's a discussion we n= eed to have.
I would certainly let market to decide on the tools/= algorithms that will achieve those numbers - be it a Quality of Experience = middle box (like LibreQoS, Preseem, Bequand/Cambium Networks QoE, Paraqum o= r Sandvine), L4S etc.

As for the other issues that= need some love - for example, making vendors to update kernel and provide = updates to routers they sold, that's a good thing.

=
All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

=C2=A0

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +4= 21919416714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

= frantisek.borsik@gmail.com



On Thu, Mar = 13, 2025 at 5:33=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrot= e:
>
> As for "what the FCC can do", "dissolve itself" co= mes to mind. AFAIK, it's been over a decade since they have done anythi= ng helpful or useful for any American citizen who isn't the head of a m= ajor corporation. If you delete the entire organization, there will be no o= ne around to enforce whatever regs are still on the books so who cares? ...= and you'll save another few 10's of millions of dollars annually w= hich will fit nicely in the pockets of the "good folks", aka FODT= . =F0=9F=98=8A=F0=9F=98=8A=F0=9F=98=8A
>
I worked with a CA state regulator in a tech support role prior to
so-called broadband (actually, internet access beyond dial-up MODEMs)
This was post 1996 telco act, just prior to the dot com bubble. The
lobbyists at the time disliked having 50 States regulating things.
They pushed made it so the 5 commissioners on the FCC became the
primary regulators. Many call this regulatory capture.

Unfortunately, I don't think we can get rid of the FCC. Our utility
poles are mostly regulated by them as one example.

I also don't think the FCC can mandage any specific AQM algorithm.
That's a long term disaster in the making for sure. Let network
engineers and the market battle that out.

Bob

PS. Good to hear from you RR - i hope all is well. I've got a Fi-Wi
project you may be interested in - not sure.
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
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