From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qt1-x82a.google.com (mail-qt1-x82a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AFA7B3CB46; Mon, 11 Dec 2023 14:34:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82a.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-4259a275fa9so32023281cf.2; Mon, 11 Dec 2023 11:34:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1702323249; x=1702928049; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=G76kIT2e6qjDWyT1abcVk+S/WiUDGCSwkADysAKanJQ=; b=B+KzpiOs3+3/IgNgbZW3w3ihnlEDbFnbUB8X/N+eeSxRg+5+wyT7S3HAPYhAWzq2Lw JBOJfy/HDKYxbZ2J/Ir12JoqBhcgxJF7yqNYoRIo/UimLsbtP/2SuF2aMJwfdYEDcrwI ymof79EMLCWPWbv06qeYcDzidZNCgy22AeJn1bJhPM7xHTBcdolMVgH0kzlKhsSQxS8E kXL7GybaUuLO6lfHThPoGlFj4omBtKsik2yBVw+YY0h6nqoU6azqoAAB1wAplOAqOaoa BfApkWGMALQTlIJ5kRhKCO4MppRkGTuH0ygP3IAt1kOVHCiP2KbtanQ84LI4UX1UNn1W 3fUw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1702323249; x=1702928049; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=G76kIT2e6qjDWyT1abcVk+S/WiUDGCSwkADysAKanJQ=; b=eS9PuJtueLtIWIe0FE2c2eWPmx/qXD4JemmDbbboLMc4OMfaWRkM81iPyEQxUx/PMs 11GexXir4pG2or+Je5W9xBkG9nEnef9CDf1/8qwIWfyLQIDsrDmmCtNT6bwaspAtbKnl kh2EHY8XQy2hb6J5d6qRUB7gnRwYJsGn/u2WDuWWcSt+Z4oKxSvN5TvSOkwUTB/wabYC sVQvZt3H1rJ5baCNs8ASYFWo/zn+e4f8D+i3KWK9Bf+esJBOMQe9zJfV3RcGHQNSs3fo kCjii6Nd9fnmpv82WHrsB4Zl8Qb/CHl9zGxLxT21gMnHuS/5P16bzbJ9sxZBXziFL+Jb 6rOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxrWSMA0kxMxK51eoy4/aqB1+WhhbMxb87ZghCsG2/qfnrOIB3h BQ2Rv2D5dx4MCIVzEI4QURHsqncXGNxDGcddX+s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFx97B0nwBZYyIToWtg9d7490IR2DTgEUJ473R63RCv0bKc/PI8ZLYFptAtFlOJaE33V5o7BuPc4vbwr2Ouk7k= X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:490:b0:425:a07f:6ca2 with SMTP id p16-20020a05622a049000b00425a07f6ca2mr8332445qtx.58.1702323248767; Mon, 11 Dec 2023 11:34:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <826a0d77-b6b8-423d-a094-93d75840fa90@rjmcmahon.com> <4C2CA220-A7EF-4198-BE6C-A2FC979A1F8D@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: From: Frantisek Borsik Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 20:33:32 +0100 Message-ID: To: Sebastian Moeller , =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspect?= =?UTF-8?Q?s_heard_this_time=21?= Cc: bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000089268e060c41049f" Subject: Re: [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 19:34:09 -0000 --00000000000089268e060c41049f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Sebastian, So you have shared that "L$S bible" :-) with the bloat list and I do believe that even people at NN list should read it: https://pbg.cs.illinois.edu/courses/cs598fa09/readings/b07.pdf Heck, everyone in the field should read it. Food for thought, certainly. *Btw, https://www.understandinglatency.com today was great, hope more of you join us tomorrow*. Jason will be giving an update on "L4S Field Trial Experiences", also Stuart "It's latency, stupid!" of Apple will be speaking and I'm looking forward to my compatriot, Marek Pesta, with CDN77, adding more knowledge to the CDN field. All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik@gmail.com On Mon, Dec 11, 2023 at 4:04=E2=80=AFPM Sebastian Moeller = wrote: > Hi Frantisek, > > still keeping NNagain off-list, no need to infect yet another list with m= y > L4S aversion ;) > > > On Dec 11, 2023, at 11:18, Frantisek Borsik > wrote: > > > > =E2=80=A6and I=E2=80=99m adding NN again, because: > > > > No matter which evil end game is actually the one, it will create a > quite a havoc. > > Not so sure about that, my expectancy is mostly that L4S is going > to fizzle out simply because it over-promised and under-delivers. And > fizzling out does not make impressive havoc... > > > Seeing, for example Netflix, participating in L4S trail (they said it > was for their cloud gaming, > > But if we look at the DualQ from the outside we see a priority > scheduler with little to no organic bulk traffic (yet?) so using this for > any latency sensitive traffic is tempting. The bigger question for me is, > does Netflix' cloud gaming traffic actually respond gracefully to CE mark= s > as expected for an L5S flow, or if it is using NQB instead is it followin= g > the eligibility recommendations for NQB traffic? That is, is this traffic > playing along the rules or not? (One of the problems with L4S is that it > defines a set of requirements for traffic and then fails to enforce/polic= e > these requirements, making them pretty irrelevant, but I digress). > > > > while at IETF 118) is in my mind the same like seeing a capitalist, an > entrepreneur selling a rope to a bloodthirsty communist that want to crea= te > a noose to hang him on it :-) but if one don=E2=80=99t see/hear evil=E2= =80=A6there is no > hope. > > I see less diabolic evil in L4S and more ideologically* driven > mediocrity... > > Regards > Sebastian > > > *) Hard to read > https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=3Drep1&type=3Dpdf&doi=3D6e73= 64c67c13fa991c63292b281fac61dfcf40e0 > "Flow Rate Fairness: Dismantling a Religion" as anything but ideologicall= y > driven... > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > Frank > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > > > > > On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 at 10:52 AM, Sebastian Moeller > wrote: > > Hi Frantisek, > > > > steering this to the bloat list, as I have a hunch my response might no= t > be appropriate for the wide audience in NNagain even though this can have > NN ramifications. > > > > > > > On Dec 11, 2023, at 10:50, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > > > > Top story on HN: > > > > > > h++ps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D38597744 > > > > > > My pick for top comment: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A possible L4S end game? =F0=9F=98=81 > > > > Unlikely, as that would e.g. violate EU directive 2015/2120 too > blatantly. My take is more subtle, L4S is essentially a technique that on= ly > works well for short RTTs and the end game is to make datacenter space > inside eyeball-ISPs much more desirable and hence yielding higher prices.= .. > L4S effectively increases TCPs existing RTT bias* and hence makes long > range L4S connections undesirable/under-performing, and that implies that > content providers that want to use L4S will need to get their servers/CDN= s > close to the eye-balls. But hey, I would love to be wrong and ISPs jus do > this out of the goodness of their hearts... (only then I would politely a= sk > the to deploy a flow queueing AQM instead of DualQ, as that in one swoop > will solve a ship-load of L4S problems). > > > > Regards > > Sebastian > > > > > > *) L4S argues that this is not an increase, but that due to removing > traditional TCP's excess queueing it just reveals TCPs inherent RTT bias; > IMHO that is a bull shit argument since the root cause is not important, > what matters is that with L4S RTT bias becomes measurably worse. > > > > > > P.S.: I think my mail provider marks outgoing mails with too many links > as SPAM, so I need to make the URLs invisible, and I believe replacing th= e > t's in h t t p with plus signs does the trick... > > > > > > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > Frank > > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > > > > h++ps://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 7:22 PM, Robert McMahon via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > Sorry, this isn't a very good technical analysis. It's a push agenda > for AQM. I get that many people's egos are tied to their belief that my > algorithm came down from God himself. It's not true though. > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > On Dec 10, 2023, at 3:12 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > I find it alarming for the future of internet that there is a trend t= o > > > use elbowing techniques to squeeze metrics out at the expense of all > > > other flows. We know that when nobody plays fair the arms race ends > > > badly. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Sauli > > > > > > On 12/10/23, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > Well, to be completely honest, I would say its about general public, > really > > > - it=E2=80=99s an article in The Verge :-) > > > > > > But yeah. Here=E2=80=99s something they should address: > > > > > > h++ps://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#key-findings > > > > > > In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a biggest L4= S > > > problem: > > > h++ps:// > www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-activit= y-7128317873571176448-GWAX > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > Frank > > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > > > > h++ps://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:48 AM, Matt Mathis via Nnagain < > > > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > > > > About L4S > > > > > > h++ps:// > www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwi= dth > > > > > > It says something about their target audience that they feel they > need to > > > explain bytes vs bits. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > --MM-- > > > Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use > force > > > to apply it to others. > > > > > > Matt Mathis (Email is best) > > > Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call. > > > > > > > > > Nnagain mailing list > > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > > > > > > > > > > > Nnagain mailing list > > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nnagain mailing list > > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nnagain mailing list > > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > > > --00000000000089268e060c41049f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Sebastian,

So you have shared tha= t "L$S bible" =C2=A0:-) with the bloat list and I do believe that= even people at NN list should read it:=C2=A0https://pbg.cs.illinois.edu/co= urses/cs598fa09/readings/b07.pdf

Heck, everyon= e in the field should read it. Food for thought, certainly.

<= /div>
Btw,=C2=A0htt= ps://www.understandinglatency.com today was great, hope more of you joi= n us tomorrow. Jason will be giving an update on "L4S Field Trial = Experiences", also Stuart "It's latency, stupid!" of App= le will be speaking and I'm looking forward to my compatriot, Marek Pes= ta, with CDN77, adding more knowledge to the CDN field.

=
All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

=C2=A0

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +4= 21919416714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

= frantisek.borsik@gmail.com



On Mon, Dec 11, 2023= at 4:04=E2=80=AFPM Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:
Hi Frantisek,
still keeping NNagain off-list, no need to infect yet another list with my = L4S aversion ;)

> On Dec 11, 2023, at 11:18, Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
>
> =E2=80=A6and I=E2=80=99m adding NN again, because:
>
> No matter which evil end game is actually the one, it will create a qu= ite a havoc.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Not so sure about that, my expectancy is mostly= that L4S is going to fizzle out simply because it over-promised and under-= delivers. And fizzling out does not make impressive havoc...

> Seeing, for example Netflix, participating in L4S trail (they said it = was for their cloud gaming,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 But if we look at the DualQ from the outside we= see a priority scheduler with little to no organic bulk traffic (yet?) so = using this for any latency sensitive traffic is tempting. The bigger questi= on for me is, does Netflix' cloud gaming traffic actually respond grace= fully to CE marks as expected for an L5S flow, or if it is using NQB instea= d is it following the eligibility recommendations for NQB traffic? That is,= is this traffic playing along the rules or not? (One of the problems with = L4S is that it defines a set of requirements for traffic and then fails to = enforce/police these requirements, making them pretty irrelevant, but I dig= ress).


> while at IETF 118) is in my mind the same like seeing a capitalist, an= entrepreneur selling a rope to a bloodthirsty communist that want to creat= e a noose to hang him on it :-) but if one don=E2=80=99t see/hear evil=E2= =80=A6there is no hope.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I see less diabolic evil in L4S and more ideolo= gically* driven mediocrity...

Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sebastian


*) Hard to read https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?re= pid=3Drep1&type=3Dpdf&doi=3D6e7364c67c13fa991c63292b281fac61dfcf40e= 0 "Flow Rate Fairness: Dismantling a Religion" as anything bu= t ideologically driven...

>
>
> All the best,
>
> Frank
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> Skype: casioa5302ca
> franti= sek.borsik@gmail.com
>
>
> On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 at 10:52 AM, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi Frantisek,
>
> steering this to the bloat list, as I have a hunch my response might n= ot be appropriate for the wide audience in NNagain even though this can hav= e NN ramifications.
>
>
> > On Dec 11, 2023, at 10:50, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain@lists= .bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> > Top story on HN:
> >
> > h++ps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D38597= 744
> >
> > My pick for top comment:
> >
> > <image_6487327.JPG>
> >
> >
> > A possible L4S end game? =F0=9F=98=81
>
> Unlikely, as that would e.g. violate EU directive 2015/2120 too blatan= tly. My take is more subtle, L4S is essentially a technique that only works= well for short RTTs and the end game is to make datacenter space inside ey= eball-ISPs much more desirable and hence yielding higher prices... L4S effe= ctively increases TCPs existing RTT bias* and hence makes long range L4S co= nnections undesirable/under-performing, and that implies that content provi= ders that want to use L4S will need to get their servers/CDNs close to the = eye-balls. But hey, I would love to be wrong and ISPs jus do this out of th= e goodness of their hearts... (only then I would politely ask the to deploy= a flow queueing AQM instead of DualQ, as that in one swoop will solve a sh= ip-load of L4S problems).
>
> Regards
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sebastian
>
>
> *) L4S argues that this is not an increase, but that due to removing t= raditional TCP's excess queueing it just reveals TCPs inherent RTT bias= ; IMHO that is a bull shit argument since the root cause is not important, = what matters is that with L4S RTT bias becomes measurably worse.
>
>
> P.S.: I think my mail provider marks outgoing mails with too many link= s as SPAM, so I need to make the URLs invisible, and I believe replacing th= e t's in h t t p with plus signs does the trick...
>
>
> >
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Frank
> > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> >
> > h++ps://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik<= br> > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> > Skype: casioa5302ca
> > f= rantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 7:22 PM, Robert McMahon via Nnagain <nnagain@li= sts.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > Sorry, this isn't a very good technical analysis. It's a = push agenda for AQM. I get that many people's egos are tied to their be= lief that my algorithm came down from God himself. It's not true though= .
> >
> >
> > Bob
> > On Dec 10, 2023, at 3:12 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via Nnagain <nnagain@list= s.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > I find it alarming for the future of internet that there is a tre= nd to
> > use elbowing techniques to squeeze metrics out at the expense of = all
> > other flows. We know that when nobody plays fair the arms race en= ds
> > badly.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Sauli
> >
> > On 12/10/23, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.n= et> wrote:
> >=C2=A0 Well, to be completely honest, I would say its about genera= l public, really
> >=C2=A0 - it=E2=80=99s an article in The Verge :-)
> >
> >=C2=A0 But yeah. Here=E2=80=99s something they should address:
> >
> >=C2=A0 h++ps://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#k= ey-findings
> >
> >=C2=A0 In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a b= iggest L4S
> >=C2=A0 problem:
> >=C2=A0 h++ps://www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonath= anmorton-l4s-ietf118-activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >=C2=A0 All the best,
> >
> >=C2=A0 Frank
> >=C2=A0 Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> >
> >=C2=A0 h++ps://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsi= k
> >=C2=A0 Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> >=C2=A0 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> >=C2=A0 Skype: casioa5302ca
> >=C2=A0 frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> >
> >
> >=C2=A0 On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:48 AM, Matt Mathis via Nnagain <= ;
> >=C2=A0 nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> >=C2=A0 About L4S
> >
> >=C2=A0 h++ps://www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-b= andwidth
> >
> >=C2=A0 It says something about their target audience that they fee= l they need to
> >=C2=A0 explain bytes vs bits.
> >
> >=C2=A0 Thanks,
> >=C2=A0 --MM--
> >=C2=A0 Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Tr= uth" and use force
> >=C2=A0 to apply it to others.
> >
> >=C2=A0 Matt Mathis=C2=A0 (Email is best)
> >=C2=A0 Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if y= ou must call.
> >
> >
> >=C2=A0 Nnagain mailing list
> >=C2=A0 Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >=C2=A0 h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/= nnagain
> >
> >
> >
> > Nnagain mailing list
> > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagai= n
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nnagain mailing list
> > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagai= n
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nnagain mailing list
> > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagai= n
>

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