From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ej1-x62d.google.com (mail-ej1-x62d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B48C3B29E for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2025 14:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x62d.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-ac7bd86f637so640478766b.1 for ; Sun, 06 Apr 2025 11:09:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1743962969; x=1744567769; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=McjBJ35qsZ8E1uI0Db2aVFTxU0/5gcsj+Y+tQCuPJ7I=; b=CrLOP/7+nPTqjHtePts4YhD5VP3Jo11vPq5ZHSYNmgrPh2rxYPN0tvVtgXBzotQ5fl pgITcjNfoBZIPWKhVH0hotf0x6Xj9xapYniHSJj8JAh1Gt90jlPSWsXfqz6j718hQCie K2BmiEExT2PmHMLYRJCUjzzW6xUL52ygUWbaTMJpaNptPdPHHIjDNGN7k7b1dAGRHEMR 1F1VK/tulcNKrjCtxqCaCehmhBIGhfgw3YqO8mYPvoi75sR8niDBFp+4JBFX1JZp9ThN mWq26f/KrNsrWHboL+sVb1wYWDOjjmYyHew3FdW64vhBOxLt720PSCPdmaly26An1Q1I YBPw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1743962969; x=1744567769; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=McjBJ35qsZ8E1uI0Db2aVFTxU0/5gcsj+Y+tQCuPJ7I=; b=itLg6OM030glFJakuNsnMdL17aCL0Q2I9G91RFp/BN/G1vEuuhLpoNcpPoXiS5o+gI b7TWq6SRPp5mGGYSd7GkT8f3BBCKduh1MCntXdXYRHDZH0gibxRby0qBWVEDaQq5+CeS 8sQTyxEQYmsz1N0wIlnf8gzEaRrk2bgt2NEeTAej0R6LyDw9oLzLrOTtuXOdy23soh79 Di8NkubgCldBYhQbCA34ZenH205TmipyEWlQYEg1S3aaXYnRRFDogOw6XqLwDKlqFvU4 DNDbor6xGXa/pDzo/d8dewpqkITYR/c6+EEE+5EjHC6+f5pgxJUeb876y6fKcWCgMSJc lDug== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxqXojLn92DlSmj2vGzgSrCjBeSuxNdn+zcrgW/S1Ul9YWQ5/+u iA+RLMO3InCOTntzlmig7F4oxxPFpzQapazX8qhDIdKhMg5lZ1Ia6QhXBtYnDrnNM+/lQzBYVzA 2SEn38J/ZoDdflX8twfIlCvbTlHSdzOkijKk= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncve2I40bhp0QP9hMUBAfZLJvYnqqJvIQdblK3rumxwvfpeBRLHry0dhKGZxuK2 e+B9FqOf9lAn3O/SQABmZfWIcTGUlgIGvqw69KWWiYUaZvYXvOJpFvnqj80kYRYZWCAEj47x/9f T61Eql1RYTip1JAEk+cQYDy5NqFDE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGXzfvhFzZHmAdUh2ZKOLhQVqA86C22gzUFdwNatvc+3MxmMcxKhjGgKdCEBf16/y6ga1w8TBsMYef+rjI4nSc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:c156:b0:ac3:eb12:a722 with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-ac7d2e19d2amr1004130166b.7.1743962969009; Sun, 06 Apr 2025 11:09:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0C0CF6D1-DBB6-4BE1-B9D2-5FCDFB1B6257@stonescry.com> <1787707089.2756.1743949337720@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <1787707089.2756.1743949337720@email.ionos.com> From: Frantisek Borsik Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2025 20:11:19 +0200 X-Gm-Features: ATxdqUEj_ejLQIKUQhEmm-nosLqfP6Ryej0TI0c_z4nT5rKbXGD-FsglCiQwSbU Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000044f52d06322005a0" Subject: Re: [NNagain] Spam filtering X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2025 18:09:30 -0000 --00000000000044f52d06322005a0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My great pleasure, Tanya. Btw, when I'm at it, here is a talk Dave gave at Battlemesh v8 in Maribor, Slovenia, in 2015, and people love it a lot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DRb-UnHDw02o Hope you guys will enjoy it as well. All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik *In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: *1965-2025 https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik@gmail.com On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 4:22=E2=80=AFPM Tanya Weiman via Nnagain < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > Thank you so much for these links, Frank! =E2=9D=A4=EF=B8=8F > > > On 04/06/2025 6:23 AM EDT Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > Thank you very much for this, Daniel. Safe travels, and enjoy your trip. = I > hope to do it one day as well, to commemorate Dave (and I need to do a lo= t > of other things we were planning to do together, like to attend SpaceX > launch etc.) > > Here is a reminder of Dave's Amtrak trip, if you want to refresh you > memory or missed it back then, in 2023: > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/nnagain/2023-October/000286.html > > Dave was heading to Netdev 0x17 in > Vancouver. His talks and music from the event, if anyone is interested, c= an > be found here: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DD9RGX6QFm5E and > https://youtu.be/rWnb543Sdk8?si=3D9LAEGpfBo2M5RX9X&t=3D2599 > > All the best, > > > Frank > > > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > > *In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: *1965-2025 > > https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 3:21=E2=80=AFAM Daniel Ezell wrote: > > Taking the Coast Starlight tonight. Wanted to compare notes with Dave > about it. Sad to have missed the opportunity. So this trip is a memorial = to > a great guy I never got to meet. > Daniel Ezell > > On Oct 28, 2023, at 3:51=E2=80=AFAM, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > I just can't even. So many garbage ideas out of Brussels as of late. DSA, > DMA, DSM... GDPR in the past, or even that horrible CRA =3D Cyber Resilie= nce > Act: > > > https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/10/the-eus-proposed-cyber-resil= ience-act-will-damage-the-open-source-ecosystem/ > https://blog.nlnetlabs.nl/open-source-software-vs-the-cyber-resilience-ac= t/ > > Good intentions don't count, bad results do. Most of the evil in this > world was done by people with good intentions and this is not an exceptio= n. > > > All the best, > > > Frank > > > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 1:45=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 4:23=E2=80=AFPM Nathan Simington via Nnagain > wrote: > > > > This has gone from mere cost-shifting to protocol takeover. Self-hostin= g > is essentially dead because you are guaranteed to get filtered by Outlook > and Gmail, which means that there is de facto embrace-and-extend -- "best > viewed in Internet Explorer at 800x600" but for a core standard. > > This is one of those things that could be reversed if there was law > guaranteeing freedom of communications. That really does not seem to > be the way the world is going, however. > > See: https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/ for example. > > I like email (and netnews). You had a copy, the recipients had copies, > and pretty much anyone that had the capability of snooping in-between > had copies. Nobody ever got arround to making starttls mandatory. > Compare this to all the even more centralized, but incompatible chat > systems since, multiple ones that have vanished from the web (g+), and > others that are barely hanging on, like disquis. > > Even with the flight to mastodon and other heavily encrypted home > server technologies, email remains the most common, useful and > malleable public identifier for connecting people to people. I would > like to make it better, for everyone, again. > > > > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 5:48=E2=80=AFPM Hal Murray via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> > >> [Was Amtrack] > >> > >> > >> > 2) I could get mad that I figure 80% of this new email list is > vanishing into > >> > spam boxes. > >> > >> > >> > What of the 10s of thousands of other emails that have come over the > years > >> > not just from lists.bufferbloat.net but from people trying honestly > to > >> > communicate? > >> > >> There is/was a good discussion of all the good things that network > geeks have > >> done. > >> > >> How about discussing the things they haven't done? > >> > >> Spam would be pretty high on my list. It's tangled up with > (in)security -- a > >> lot comes from infected systems or phished accounts. > >> > >> The current approach to spam is cost shifting. If you don't pay for > your > >> abuse desk, the crap that you send or phishing sites you host..., mean= s > that > >> the rest of the net has to spend more on defense. > >> > >> Anybody remember Spamford Wallace? He was going to setup a spam > friendly ISP. > >> Nobody would connect to him. I wonder what would happen if a few ISP= s > that > >> host a lot of abuse had more troubles getting connected to the net. > Would a > >> few well publicized examples be enough to spread the word? > >> > >> > >> > >> High on my list would be dis/mis-information. The business model seem= s > to be > >> to show customers things that will keep them online so you can show > them more > >> ads. Gues what does that? > >> > >> Is this also cost shifting? It's society as a whole that has to pay > for the > >> disruption caused by bogus information. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> These are my opinions. I hate spam. > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nnagain mailing list > >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > > > > > > > -- > > Nathan Simington > > cell: 305-793-6899 > > _______________________________________________ > > Nnagain mailing list > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > > > -- > Oct 30: > https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > _______________________________________________ Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --00000000000044f52d06322005a0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My great pleasure, Tanya. Btw, when I'm at it, he= re is a talk Dave gave at Battlemesh v8 in Maribor, Slovenia, in 2015, and = people love it a lot:
=

Hope you guys will enjoy it as well.

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik


In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht= :=C2=A01965-2025

https://lib= reqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/


https://www.linkedin.com/in/= frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile:= +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com=



On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 4:22=E2=80=AFPM Tan= ya Weiman via Nnagain <= nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
<= /u> =20 =20 =20
Thank you so much for these links, Frank! =E2=9D=A4=EF=B8=8F
=C2=A0
On 04/06/2025 6:23 AM EDT Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.buffer= bloat.net> wrote:
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Thank you very much for this, Daniel. Safe travels, and enjoy your tr= ip. I hope to do it one day as well, to commemorate Dave (and I need to do = a lot of other things we were planning to do together, like to attend Space= X launch etc.)
=C2=A0
Here is a reminder of Dave's Amtrak trip, if you want to refresh = you memory or missed it back then, in 2023:=C2=A0https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/nnagain/2023-Oct= ober/000286.html
=C2=A0
Dave was heading to=C2=A0Netdev 0x17=C2=A0in Vancouver. His tal= ks and music from the event, if anyone is interested, can be found here:
=C2=A0
All the best,
=C2=A0

Frank=

=C2= =A0

Frant= isek (Frank) Borsik

=C2= =A0

In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht:=C2=A01965-2025

https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-= dave/

=C2= =A0

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frant= isekborsik

Signa= l, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=C2=A0

iMess= age, mobile: +420775230885

Skype= : casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 3:21=E2=80=AFAM Daniel Ezell <dezell@stonescry.com> wr= ote:
Taking the Coast Starlight tonight. Wanted to compare notes with Dave= about it. Sad to have missed the opportunity. So this trip is a memorial t= o a great guy I never got to meet.=C2=A0
Daniel Ezell

On Oct 28, 2023, at 3:51=E2=80=AFAM, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain &= lt;nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

I just can't even. So many garbage ideas out of Brussels as of= late. DSA, DMA, DSM... GDPR in the past, or even that horrible CRA =3D=C2= =A0Cyber Resilience Act:=20

=C2=A0
Good intentions don't count, bad results do. Most of the evi= l in this world was done by people with good intentions and this is not an = exception.
=C2=A0

All the best,
=C2=A0

Frank

=C2=A0

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

=C2=A0

https://www.linkedin.com/i= n/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 1:45=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht via Nnagain <= ;nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 4:23=E2=80=AFPM Nathan Simington via Nnag= ain
<nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> This has gone from mere cost-shifting to protocol takeover. = Self-hosting is essentially dead because you are guaranteed to get filtered= by Outlook and Gmail, which means that there is de facto embrace-and-exten= d -- "best viewed in Internet Explorer at 800x600" but for a core= standard.

This is one of those things that could be reversed if there was l= aw
guaranteeing=C2=A0 freedom of communications. That really does no= t seem to
be the way the world is going, however.

See: https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/po= sts/chat-control/ for example.

I like email (and netnews). You had a copy, the recipients had co= pies,
and pretty much anyone that had the capability of snooping in-bet= ween
had copies.=C2=A0 Nobody ever got arround to making starttls mand= atory.
Compare this to all the even more centralized, but incompatible c= hat
systems since, multiple ones that have vanished from the web (g+)= , and
others that are barely hanging on, like disquis.

Even with the flight to mastodon and other heavily encrypted home
server technologies, email remains the most common, useful and
malleable public identifier for connecting people to people. I wo= uld
like to make it better, for everyone, again.


> On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 5:48=E2=80=AFPM Hal Murray via Nnaga= in <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> [Was Amtrack]
>>
>>
>> > 2) I could get mad that I figure 80% of this new em= ail list is vanishing into
>> > spam boxes.
>>
>>
>> > What of the 10s of thousands of other emails that h= ave come over the years
>> > not just from lists.bufferbloat.net but from p= eople trying honestly to
>> > communicate?
>>
>> There is/was a good discussion of all the good things th= at network geeks have
>> done.
>>
>> How about discussing the things they haven't done?
>>
>> Spam would be pretty high on my list.=C2=A0 It's tan= gled up with (in)security -- a
>> lot comes from infected systems or phished accounts.
>>
>> The current approach to spam is cost shifting.=C2=A0 If = you don't pay for your
>> abuse desk, the crap that you send or phishing sites you= host..., means that
>> the rest of the net has to spend more on defense.
>>
>> Anybody remember Spamford Wallace?=C2=A0 He was going to= setup a spam friendly ISP.
>>=C2=A0 Nobody would connect to him.=C2=A0 I wonder what w= ould happen if a few ISPs that
>> host a lot of abuse had=C2=A0 more troubles getting conn= ected to the net.=C2=A0 Would a
>> few well publicized examples be enough to spread the wor= d?
>>
>>
>>
>> High on my list would be dis/mis-information.=C2=A0 The = business model seems to be
>> to show customers things that will keep them online so y= ou can show them more
>> ads.=C2=A0 Gues what does that?
>>
>> Is this also cost shifting?=C2=A0 It's society as a = whole that has to pay for the
>> disruption caused by bogus information.
>>
>>
>> --
>> These are my opinions.=C2=A0 I hate spam.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nnagain mailing list
>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinf= o/nnagain
>
>
>
> --
> Nathan Simington
> cell: 305-793-6899
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nn= again



--=20
Oct 30: https://netdevco= nf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nna= gain
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnag= ain
_______________________________________________ Nnagain mailing l= ist Nnag= ain@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnag= ain
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
--00000000000044f52d06322005a0--