From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ej1-x634.google.com (mail-ej1-x634.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::634]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C86633B2A4 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2025 06:21:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x634.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-ac289147833so557120266b.2 for ; Sun, 06 Apr 2025 03:21:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1743934900; x=1744539700; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Cjxv3hgMbR0gijkFW0kljqqDUF2q1GmNTg+/9kLMOS8=; b=B0q1B5/LXXF+Potxz9vPjAXDTsMq5BXLT1GEV/N8X5XlO7e0NITnLw7uN8qNzl8CEN jwzFqu6iAP6Gx+oiFYvD2PaB68BEApJimWBpCwCIdTAubuROQANf/7CPe/EmqaKRWAZY Iikbz9Ll7Bkn2I5C3a0Yl+rwy9ntTIk9vGshPZt7wbVREguq9xz3BPGEU3pS5AML2vK3 J0p88e+BAVslN3vhNgLjMgK7s0p9oMs/Gsaf6ZnCD4Bh8AHDgvV00sL5AAgGMo7dp/NJ 1SXHgYsw7Z14raXZb4yXWfZrl0lQogxIP+uNOLdyLptFNMVS1U/cMxDyVbTmB/HGvufl paMw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1743934900; x=1744539700; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=Cjxv3hgMbR0gijkFW0kljqqDUF2q1GmNTg+/9kLMOS8=; b=A3I9dEQEkCgrVNqvHxErKhOnyGHrp5OTLOKPZ7vWOefWg44Q3Q5x9SJI6E00JTUaBU BKVsjXxme8Mc36fqAqmmPh2p9z1eIZFjJ0Ug5E06ukc3N4K8VbrqNlqCFABR/E1ZXUPL x+Pgr/Z5xhHu3WNdkpO23AsV+wgkZQeZD+z9Dc7m143WsMws6pD6J3v6XQqFXtZAvSPQ WNjzyz8GCx09lVd6K7oVSx//LhlSJjP5WD2PF6PVovELwAbhTBK9/rNpwgyJscXLTOtW heNXzPgMBIViyZxgPPTO99uSqcU8xXx+H5p8WZz6yce8fLJsa4QZqmdc07XFZljztcft nLIg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxFGNMvK9gKP1HIue23uq7ptb/I4M4NQVItZRjKy3EHn1Ta1OQ7 9YU7IrTzXpaP+240awGjQsoPrv8gXBO2YrKPsfreb8Dcd9tK8ouEMTcWX0dKPbe/v7sWMX3UsSs mCzQcB9h4/diCzsBNSbV2pewWWmb1YyybMJ4= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnct+GkOrYhyMwsi0zFaCfPKcVKTWZSJqY+96tUU27VAMhhBtPhKXxS35V1vy9no LMBwlwW3OHmWwON5pEpSewpfKVVkpjQRAkgpNMTSbEkYtaDRfg3DxbY2uazoZd8daOVsypplAkp sKFpBSw5svaYgqA4mhJTqkxQoz1R8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHkFQiwhshCwHz7DGnMT5541YnkWmDIfO3OOYu7hfUr5As/bz6IYdL0HUNOuMbRRYK0m9rNHKBs9UBNcvnp0ec= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:478c:b0:ac6:d0f6:c85c with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-ac7d189eb16mr928954966b.20.1743934899382; Sun, 06 Apr 2025 03:21:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0C0CF6D1-DBB6-4BE1-B9D2-5FCDFB1B6257@stonescry.com> In-Reply-To: <0C0CF6D1-DBB6-4BE1-B9D2-5FCDFB1B6257@stonescry.com> From: Frantisek Borsik Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2025 12:23:28 +0200 X-Gm-Features: ATxdqUHrQqZvDL_1Mn-tD1zcTunScNLrgp7KHBWzIZUyV8VL6J2tjr_utmGrrH8 Message-ID: To: Daniel Ezell Cc: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003077840632197c34" Subject: Re: [NNagain] Spam filtering X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2025 10:21:41 -0000 --0000000000003077840632197c34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you very much for this, Daniel. Safe travels, and enjoy your trip. I hope to do it one day as well, to commemorate Dave (and I need to do a lot of other things we were planning to do together, like to attend SpaceX launch etc.) Here is a reminder of Dave's Amtrak trip, if you want to refresh you memory or missed it back then, in 2023: https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/nnagain/2023-October/000286.html Dave was heading to Netdev 0x17 in Vancouver. His talks and music from the event, if anyone is interested, can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DD9RGX6QFm5E and https://youtu.be/rWnb543Sdk8?si=3D9LAEGpfBo2M5RX9X&t=3D2599 All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik *In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: *1965-2025 https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik@gmail.com On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 3:21=E2=80=AFAM Daniel Ezell = wrote: > Taking the Coast Starlight tonight. Wanted to compare notes with Dave > about it. Sad to have missed the opportunity. So this trip is a memorial = to > a great guy I never got to meet. > Daniel Ezell > > On Oct 28, 2023, at 3:51=E2=80=AFAM, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > =EF=BB=BF > I just can't even. So many garbage ideas out of Brussels as of late. DSA, > DMA, DSM... GDPR in the past, or even that horrible CRA =3D Cyber Resilie= nce > Act: > > > https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/10/the-eus-proposed-cyber-resil= ience-act-will-damage-the-open-source-ecosystem/ > https://blog.nlnetlabs.nl/open-source-software-vs-the-cyber-resilience-ac= t/ > > Good intentions don't count, bad results do. Most of the evil in this > world was done by people with good intentions and this is not an exceptio= n. > > > All the best, > > Frank > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > > On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 1:45=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 4:23=E2=80=AFPM Nathan Simington via Nnagain >> wrote: >> > >> > This has gone from mere cost-shifting to protocol takeover. >> Self-hosting is essentially dead because you are guaranteed to get filte= red >> by Outlook and Gmail, which means that there is de facto embrace-and-ext= end >> -- "best viewed in Internet Explorer at 800x600" but for a core standard= . >> >> This is one of those things that could be reversed if there was law >> guaranteeing freedom of communications. That really does not seem to >> be the way the world is going, however. >> >> See: https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/ for example. >> >> I like email (and netnews). You had a copy, the recipients had copies, >> and pretty much anyone that had the capability of snooping in-between >> had copies. Nobody ever got arround to making starttls mandatory. >> Compare this to all the even more centralized, but incompatible chat >> systems since, multiple ones that have vanished from the web (g+), and >> others that are barely hanging on, like disquis. >> >> Even with the flight to mastodon and other heavily encrypted home >> server technologies, email remains the most common, useful and >> malleable public identifier for connecting people to people. I would >> like to make it better, for everyone, again. >> >> >> > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 5:48=E2=80=AFPM Hal Murray via Nnagain < >> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> [Was Amtrack] >> >> >> >> >> >> > 2) I could get mad that I figure 80% of this new email list is >> vanishing into >> >> > spam boxes. >> >> >> >> >> >> > What of the 10s of thousands of other emails that have come over th= e >> years >> >> > not just from lists.bufferbloat.net but from people trying honestly >> to >> >> > communicate? >> >> >> >> There is/was a good discussion of all the good things that network >> geeks have >> >> done. >> >> >> >> How about discussing the things they haven't done? >> >> >> >> Spam would be pretty high on my list. It's tangled up with >> (in)security -- a >> >> lot comes from infected systems or phished accounts. >> >> >> >> The current approach to spam is cost shifting. If you don't pay for >> your >> >> abuse desk, the crap that you send or phishing sites you host..., >> means that >> >> the rest of the net has to spend more on defense. >> >> >> >> Anybody remember Spamford Wallace? He was going to setup a spam >> friendly ISP. >> >> Nobody would connect to him. I wonder what would happen if a few >> ISPs that >> >> host a lot of abuse had more troubles getting connected to the net. >> Would a >> >> few well publicized examples be enough to spread the word? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> High on my list would be dis/mis-information. The business model >> seems to be >> >> to show customers things that will keep them online so you can show >> them more >> >> ads. Gues what does that? >> >> >> >> Is this also cost shifting? It's society as a whole that has to pay >> for the >> >> disruption caused by bogus information. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> These are my opinions. I hate spam. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Nnagain mailing list >> >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Nathan Simington >> > cell: 305-793-6899 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Nnagain mailing list >> > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >> >> >> >> -- >> Oct 30: >> https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos >> _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >> > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > --0000000000003077840632197c34 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you very much for this, Daniel. Safe trave= ls, and enjoy your trip. I hope to do it one day as well, to commemorate Da= ve (and I need to do a lot of other things we were planning to do together,= like to attend SpaceX launch etc.)

Here is a remi= nder of Dave's Amtrak trip, if you want to refresh you memory or missed= it back then, in 2023:=C2=A0https://lists.buff= erbloat.net/pipermail/nnagain/2023-October/000286.html

Dave was heading to=C2=A0Netdev 0x17=C2=A0in Vancouver. His talks and music f= rom the event, if anyone is interested, can be found here:

<= div dir=3D"ltr">
All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik


In loving memo= ry of Dave T=C3=A4ht:=C2=A01965-202= 5

https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/


https://= www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +42191941671= 4=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.= borsik@gmail.com



On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at= 3:21=E2=80=AFAM Daniel Ezell <d= ezell@stonescry.com> wrote:
Taking the Coast Starlight tonight. Wanted to compare notes with Dave a= bout it. Sad to have missed the opportunity. So this trip is a memorial to = a great guy I never got to meet.=C2=A0
Daniel Ezell

On Oct 28, 2023, at 3:51=E2=80=AFAM, Fran= tisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
I just can't even. So many garbage ideas out of Brussels as = of late. DSA, DMA, DSM... GDPR in the past, or even that horrible CRA =3D= =C2=A0Cyber Resilience Act:
Good intentions don't count, bad results do. Most of= the evil in this world was done by people with good intentions and this is= not an exception.


<= div>
All the best,

=

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik<= u>

=C2=A0

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik<= u>

Signa= l, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: cas= ioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com



On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 1:45=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.= bufferbloat.net> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 27, 20= 23 at 4:23=E2=80=AFPM Nathan Simington via Nnagain
<nnag= ain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> This has gone from mere cost-shifting to protocol takeover. Self-hosti= ng is essentially dead because you are guaranteed to get filtered by Outloo= k and Gmail, which means that there is de facto embrace-and-extend -- "= ;best viewed in Internet Explorer at 800x600" but for a core standard.=

This is one of those things that could be reversed if there was law
guaranteeing=C2=A0 freedom of communications. That really does not seem to<= br> be the way the world is going, however.

See: https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/ch= at-control/ for example.

I like email (and netnews). You had a copy, the recipients had copies,
and pretty much anyone that had the capability of snooping in-between
had copies.=C2=A0 Nobody ever got arround to making starttls mandatory.
Compare this to all the even more centralized, but incompatible chat
systems since, multiple ones that have vanished from the web (g+), and
others that are barely hanging on, like disquis.

Even with the flight to mastodon and other heavily encrypted home
server technologies, email remains the most common, useful and
malleable public identifier for connecting people to people. I would
like to make it better, for everyone, again.


> On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 5:48=E2=80=AFPM Hal Murray via Nnagain <nnagain@lis= ts.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> [Was Amtrack]
>>
>>
>> > 2) I could get mad that I figure 80% of this new email list i= s vanishing into
>> > spam boxes.
>>
>>
>> > What of the 10s of thousands of other emails that have come o= ver the years
>> > not just from lists.bufferbloat.net but from people tr= ying honestly to
>> > communicate?
>>
>> There is/was a good discussion of all the good things that network= geeks have
>> done.
>>
>> How about discussing the things they haven't done?
>>
>> Spam would be pretty high on my list.=C2=A0 It's tangled up wi= th (in)security -- a
>> lot comes from infected systems or phished accounts.
>>
>> The current approach to spam is cost shifting.=C2=A0 If you don= 9;t pay for your
>> abuse desk, the crap that you send or phishing sites you host..., = means that
>> the rest of the net has to spend more on defense.
>>
>> Anybody remember Spamford Wallace?=C2=A0 He was going to setup a s= pam friendly ISP.
>>=C2=A0 Nobody would connect to him.=C2=A0 I wonder what would happe= n if a few ISPs that
>> host a lot of abuse had=C2=A0 more troubles getting connected to t= he net.=C2=A0 Would a
>> few well publicized examples be enough to spread the word?
>>
>>
>>
>> High on my list would be dis/mis-information.=C2=A0 The business m= odel seems to be
>> to show customers things that will keep them online so you can sho= w them more
>> ads.=C2=A0 Gues what does that?
>>
>> Is this also cost shifting?=C2=A0 It's society as a whole that= has to pay for the
>> disruption caused by bogus information.
>>
>>
>> --
>> These are my opinions.=C2=A0 I hate spam.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nnagain mailing list
>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagai= n
>
>
>
> --
> Nathan Simington
> cell: 305-793-6899
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nna= gain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain



--
Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/= 0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
_______________________________________________
Nnaga= in mailing list
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
<= a href=3D"https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain" target=3D"_blank"= >https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
--0000000000003077840632197c34--