From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D13483CB46 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2023 14:26:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-425a116f1cdso26838381cf.0 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2023 11:26:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1702322796; x=1702927596; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=nPMmbdU2gPZx66gH14t9iX8W/AL1PKpwqzlNEko96Kk=; b=C+gSGvd7Sc9hqOanIKxD2qaAmwFXmH0OuAK1Ng6uzV/KevXRyZ/k+ake5aGzwgEYVv tGgwL7F9xplzqaE7FoQszDU5lCQ4xvRoJhnCg0sXCub/tKquwvLpMM8NAzrx/TjWensB 9kMxEt2G0wXnHRjWtCr7AS2xG3Cshni/RImiGzKJ9/ESi63r+rLG9y6Y3Frh4oiVlcPI qwpjatkrx3Vl7St7T6jc6p7wqi+0pJQua0FBaNcPxkOPV6r7kXq/Z45UHYV23ZFxJ2ui skKA16tzaOQye4c1psw8YoxqHeY3kV5bXGrJdAnnEVtS2FUehmuQweW7NIGoFa/NI2iM X5bw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1702322796; x=1702927596; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=nPMmbdU2gPZx66gH14t9iX8W/AL1PKpwqzlNEko96Kk=; b=j7UQDEnbuXFrtEwRa/xpM6d4NrVfIdv3m9OJmGPR6shg/xitzVp8hCtSYMUG+1BNWn Zd2WxAoCpVNonhkDrI+9rslDUIix5pmi1tRcE1rGZAZhO7EyzMUeUugh+hpP7qPo1FJH SrXlPMGsCEljk/u3K0xR2aVi6NbwWcckHRp2fk5m9AlvqdFoTpJaIisiHgnqj8b9sZhY 5jOF/h9en0rWAiprVTBiVdAJ5eyRZ6lIsy8CGL05BckQgN7WsFEgZqPoHq4mtb5QcvwQ u8eqbi9rTeRkyShyGQcb+2Be/e4mW1Cs14yx5sWKNdxuYfb5PUK39a0s+SS5rApwUGsg QpGQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyCPSt3xbwp8dcXap63Hu1c1HzFsgcjrIVJvx2UAiWlavADhqET B4VwVYXOJzrOQqGVG9aBiNrV9iPxf3IX0ASh3Ik33pLCsko= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFYrIOO8Yj4OAlesC0VS565q9aygtIht0/QwThupxVh6o4bPrB68R9+11YjLioVDUQkRRRZxLGZa/rmyuvS+eQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:4ce:b0:425:4043:18c7 with SMTP id q14-20020a05622a04ce00b00425404318c7mr6463168qtx.122.1702322796076; Mon, 11 Dec 2023 11:26:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <826a0d77-b6b8-423d-a094-93d75840fa90@rjmcmahon.com> <00B5B211-0485-46A9-A00B-D88BF7E8DFBE@comcast.com> <0b0f13b78f13cdccb0d3d2b05308d8b1@rjmcmahon.com> In-Reply-To: <0b0f13b78f13cdccb0d3d2b05308d8b1@rjmcmahon.com> From: Frantisek Borsik Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 20:25:59 +0100 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= , rjmcmahon Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008da2c6060c40e936" Subject: Re: [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 19:26:36 -0000 --0000000000008da2c6060c40e936 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This has some connection to what the creator of Wondershaper ("Wondeshaper must die! - I always keep hearing Dave in my head, when I see that word anywhere :-), Bert Hubert = , shared today: https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/anonymous-help/ All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik@gmail.com On Mon, Dec 11, 2023 at 7:51=E2=80=AFPM rjmcmahon via Nnagain < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > My opinion only and not those of my employer. > > I'm ok with people getting paid for doing new work and new innovations. > I deliver iperf 2 free to all, and to be honest, I may be able to have a > better product or, at least some public servers, if users paid > something. > > I think Dave & others run into this issue too. Few to no payments for > their work. > > The challenge for us in sw is that the marginal cost to produce (or unit > value) is basically zero. Then it's the up front costs (or non recurring > engineering NRE) that drives the recovery. That goes to zero too per > amortization across millions of users. This is all predictable by Adam > Smith himself - yet many of us try to defy those realities. > > I get that everybody wants free things. But it can be unrealistic and > demotivating when people demand things to be free. What can happen is > nobody will do the work or innovation (or be under constant threat by > their employer of being let go because free things don't directly drive > up profits required shareholders. Somehow we persist.) > > Bob > >> =E2=80=9CA possible L4S end game?=E2=80=9D > > > > Doubtful; latency is just emerging as a new competitive factor =E2=80= =93 > > like throughput. I also think =E2=80=93 if we care about reducing laten= cy > > =E2=80=93 we should embrace whatever works well and achieves scale (Bet= amax > > vs VHS). =F0=9F=98=89 > > > > From: Nnagain on behalf of > > Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain > > Reply-To: Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the technical > > aspects heard this time! > > Date: Monday, December 11, 2023 at 04:39 > > To: Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the technical aspects > > heard this time! > > Cc: Frank Borsik > > Subject: Re: [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet > > feel faster > > > > Top story on HN: > > > > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D38597744 [6] > > > > My pick for top comment: > > > > A possible L4S end game? =F0=9F=98=81 > > > > All the best, > > > > Frank > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik [3] > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > > > On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 7:22 PM, Robert McMahon via Nnagain > > wrote: > > > >> Sorry, this isn't a very good technical analysis. It's a push agenda > >> for AQM. I get that many people's egos are tied to their belief that > >> my algorithm came down from God himself. It's not true though. > >> > >> Bob > >> > >> On Dec 10, 2023, at 3:12 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via Nnagain > >> wrote: > >> > >> I find it alarming for the future of internet that there is a trend > >> to > >> use elbowing techniques to squeeze metrics out at the expense of all > >> other flows. We know that when nobody plays fair the arms race ends > >> badly. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> Sauli > >> > >> On 12/10/23, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain > >> wrote: > >> > >> Well, to be completely honest, I would say its about general > >> public, really > >> - it=E2=80=99s an article in The Verge :-) > >> > >> But yeah. Here=E2=80=99s something they should address: > >> > >> https://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#key-findings [1] > >> > >> In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a biggest > >> L4S > >> problem: > >> > > > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118= -activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX > >> [2] > >> > >> All the best, > >> > >> Frank > >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > >> > >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik [3] > >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > >> Skype: casioa5302ca > >> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > >> > >> On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:48 AM, Matt Mathis via Nnagain < > >> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> > >> About L4S > >> > >> > > > https://www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-spee= d-bandwidth > >> [4] > >> > >> It says something about their target audience that they feel they > >> need to > >> explain bytes vs bits. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> --MM-- > >> Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use > >> force > >> to apply it to others. > >> > >> ------------------------- > >> > >> Matt Mathis (Email is best) > >> Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must > >> call. > >> > >> ------------------------- > >> > >> Nnagain mailing list > >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain [5] > > > > ------------------------- > > > > Nnagain mailing list > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain [5] > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nnagain mailing list > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain [5] > > > > Links: > > ------ > > [1] > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/heistp/l4s-tests*key-findin= gs__;Iw!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ= 4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt_Jjdven$ > > [2] > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik= _jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX__;!!CQl3mcHX2= A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZ= R-qh71u3oORLkrnt5RQfEuC$ > > [3] > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;= !!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixl= fHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt24e-KKI$ > > [4] > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet= -apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwidth__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxR= Uzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt4RcaVq3= $ > > [5] > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain= __;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLU= ixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt1kOEovk$ > > [6] > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D3859774= 4__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TL= UixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrntyFCpWS8$ > > _______________________________________________ > > Nnagain mailing list > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --0000000000008da2c6060c40e936 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This has some connection to what the creator of Wondershap= er ("Wondeshaper must die! - I always keep hearing Dave in my head, wh= en I see that word anywhere :-), Bert Hubert, shared today:= =C2=A0https:/= /berthub.eu/articles/posts/anonymous-help/

<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature= ">
All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

=C2=A0

https:= //www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416= 714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantise= k.borsik@gmail.com

<= /div>


On Mon, Dec 11, 2023 at 7:51=E2=80= =AFPM rjmcmahon via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
My opinion only and not those of my employer.

I'm ok with people getting paid for doing new work and new innovations.=
I deliver iperf 2 free to all, and to be honest, I may be able to have a better product or, at least some public servers, if users paid
something.

I think Dave & others run into this issue too. Few to no payments for <= br> their work.

The challenge for us in sw is that the marginal cost to produce (or unit value) is basically zero. Then it's the up front costs (or non recurrin= g
engineering NRE) that drives the recovery. That goes to zero too per
amortization across millions of users. This is all predictable by Adam
Smith himself - yet many of us try to defy those realities.

I get that everybody wants free things. But it can be unrealistic and
demotivating when people demand things to be free. What can happen is
nobody will do the work or innovation (or be under constant threat by
their employer of being let go because free things don't directly drive=
up profits required shareholders. Somehow we persist.)

Bob
>> =E2=80=9CA possible L4S end game?=E2=80=9D
>
> Doubtful; latency is just emerging as a new competitive factor =E2=80= =93
> like throughput. I also think =E2=80=93 if we care about reducing late= ncy
> =E2=80=93 we should embrace whatever works well and achieves scale (Be= tamax
> vs VHS).=C2=A0 =F0=9F=98=89
>
> From: Nnagain <nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on beh= alf of
> Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Reply-To: Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the technical > aspects heard this time! <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Date: Monday, December 11, 2023 at 04:39
> To: Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the technical aspects<= br> > heard this time! <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Cc: Frank Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet<= br> > feel faster
>
> Top story on HN:
>
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D38597744<= /a> [6]
>
> My pick for top comment:
>
> A possible L4S end game? =F0=9F=98=81
>
> All the best,
>
> Frank
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik [3]<= br> > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> Skype: casioa5302ca
> franti= sek.borsik@gmail.com
>
> On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 7:22 PM, Robert McMahon via Nnagain
> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> Sorry, this isn't a very good technical analysis. It's a p= ush agenda
>> for AQM. I get that many people's egos are tied to their belie= f that
>> my algorithm came down from God himself. It's not true though.=
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> On Dec 10, 2023, at 3:12 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via Nnagain
>> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> I find it alarming for the future of internet that there is a tren= d
>> to
>> use elbowing techniques to squeeze metrics out at the expense of a= ll
>> other flows. We know that when nobody plays fair the arms race end= s
>> badly.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Sauli
>>
>> On 12/10/23, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain
>> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> Well, to be completely honest, I would say its about general
>> public, really
>> - it=E2=80=99s an article in The Verge :-)
>>
>> But yeah. Here=E2=80=99s something they should address:
>>
>> https://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#key-f= indings [1]
>>
>> In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a biggest<= br> >> L4S
>> problem:
>>
> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l= 4s-ietf118-activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX
>> [2]
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Frank
>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik = [3]
>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>> fr= antisek.borsik@gmail.com
>>
>> On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:48 AM, Matt Mathis via Nnagain <
>> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> About L4S
>>
>>
> https://www= .theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwidth
>> [4]
>>
>> It says something about their target audience that they feel they<= br> >> need to
>> explain bytes vs bits.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --MM--
>> Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth&quo= t; and use
>> force
>> to apply it to others.
>>
>> -------------------------
>>
>> Matt Mathis=C2=A0 (Email is best)
>> Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must=
>> call.
>>
>> -------------------------
>>
>> Nnagain mailing list
>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagai= n [5]
>
> -------------------------
>
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nna= gain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain [5]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nna= gain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain [5]
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1]
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/heistp/l4= s-tests*key-findings__;Iw!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHV= ujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt_Jjdven$
> [2]
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik= _jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX__;!!CQl3mcHX2= A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZ= R-qh71u3oORLkrnt5RQfEuC$
> [3]
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.linkedin.com/in/frantis= ekborsik__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBPCyE0d0= IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt24e-KKI$
> [4]
> https://urldefense.co= m/v3/__https:/www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-= speed-bandwidth__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvB= PCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt4RcaVq3$
> [5]
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/li= stinfo/nnagain__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUvBP= CyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrnt1kOEovk$
> [6]
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/news.ycombinator.com/it= em?id=3D38597744__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GwQbx9aZkco3K1qGFRsxRUzv1OhKS4Z_VrLHVujgUUv= BPCyE0d0IbvZ4TLUixlfHEGkYd3JYZR-qh71u3oORLkrntyFCpWS8$
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nna= gain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
--0000000000008da2c6060c40e936--