From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qt1-x836.google.com (mail-qt1-x836.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::836]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC3E63CB37 for ; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 06:51:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x836.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-41cbd2cf3bbso32744631cf.0 for ; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 03:51:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698490270; x=1699095070; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Xg1tmgoVbn2mY46HKWXgPz184K8cs78bSPqjO37zlPc=; b=Gckl5izhLFRm5YoEgEuLZo28+d+WjmdfaubPOuearQy2CajYnE1UTy/acBlUBHL/O2 JMZtypY42/2DV/LRXG4IGD6T9MkIaENhq0D+4yLqNfOuUsyaFxoJVq+Tsb9cWft4Vm8x jGT05QRtcc4hjJqsw1jTI183CUYSwthSYYSuWXSXj2T+fgjIE4xOE2phhw5czsMiK6Zh zy7Cqc64rr38Ts9YvTk/7AmV+sSoHOZAHBi6uCMI2d6R3qTcRsgrdyYTw+qERvgZRloM +wyrt9x+tqDItDhF1jslDM8XYJv5TDo2pkoKKJ+xjxcdAcN4wSH9ktgWwuJfcS80hypf yE0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698490270; x=1699095070; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=Xg1tmgoVbn2mY46HKWXgPz184K8cs78bSPqjO37zlPc=; b=dXyBoH4DhU4HxqK5tvxkHWr81nsxBrX8mzPtTCr42VRMdq9snOq3eCVWqEx8yN1mTz MEhmP+eACVZzmbgL6R9HdH1jRFMODMZRAK8tl/gtGc4MTm09jEWZlP2hrSJ30zq31RWr xmuE70kKMsSSIok1s1bIWENbpvLtxcvyNRLrMRUCPXZCDIyiSaYBXSKH6WEOJfw0BhDA UpJMSZ1GB/lcxM98ytkSvLxGRT/myY6y1Vn+RQxG7IkWrAP62te5m5KkUwMY1mDo4jjV Bpx+gjW6IlEPwgsjPRQnf6uo9VAo4ry+cSUO91c+n4doSa20+waYuW/NnwSk7lRD3Kxq RoMg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy8VorRSbeBLsfXufuHnC2ZdTlCtMVDeC6dCTTZd5eS+2+rLOwb ARMeHfjALvzV2vl6Ti9mQflj6daFH26Qojc43ArR6apR4tE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IH/A6qu6ubrZjBFwiWqW53K8Qvn4gHaL24XmSy/BQZZivghDuiyUPPMTCDWbK4GP+6FPaPuj2bvHX6QrLyGwxk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:194:b0:412:2d6f:6149 with SMTP id s20-20020a05622a019400b004122d6f6149mr11693097qtw.34.1698490270008; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 03:51:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20231027214840.7A4FA28C20C@107-137-68-211.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: From: Frantisek Borsik Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:50:33 +0200 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000032cb900608c49509" Subject: Re: [NNagain] Spam filtering X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 10:51:10 -0000 --00000000000032cb900608c49509 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just can't even. So many garbage ideas out of Brussels as of late. DSA, DMA, DSM... GDPR in the past, or even that horrible CRA =3D Cyber Resilienc= e Act: https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/10/the-eus-proposed-cyber-resilie= nce-act-will-damage-the-open-source-ecosystem/ https://blog.nlnetlabs.nl/open-source-software-vs-the-cyber-resilience-act/ Good intentions don't count, bad results do. Most of the evil in this world was done by people with good intentions and this is not an exception. All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik@gmail.com On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 1:45=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht via Nnagain < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 4:23=E2=80=AFPM Nathan Simington via Nnagain > wrote: > > > > This has gone from mere cost-shifting to protocol takeover. Self-hostin= g > is essentially dead because you are guaranteed to get filtered by Outlook > and Gmail, which means that there is de facto embrace-and-extend -- "best > viewed in Internet Explorer at 800x600" but for a core standard. > > This is one of those things that could be reversed if there was law > guaranteeing freedom of communications. That really does not seem to > be the way the world is going, however. > > See: https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/ for example. > > I like email (and netnews). You had a copy, the recipients had copies, > and pretty much anyone that had the capability of snooping in-between > had copies. Nobody ever got arround to making starttls mandatory. > Compare this to all the even more centralized, but incompatible chat > systems since, multiple ones that have vanished from the web (g+), and > others that are barely hanging on, like disquis. > > Even with the flight to mastodon and other heavily encrypted home > server technologies, email remains the most common, useful and > malleable public identifier for connecting people to people. I would > like to make it better, for everyone, again. > > > > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 5:48=E2=80=AFPM Hal Murray via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> > >> [Was Amtrack] > >> > >> > >> > 2) I could get mad that I figure 80% of this new email list is > vanishing into > >> > spam boxes. > >> > >> > >> > What of the 10s of thousands of other emails that have come over the > years > >> > not just from lists.bufferbloat.net but from people trying honestly > to > >> > communicate? > >> > >> There is/was a good discussion of all the good things that network > geeks have > >> done. > >> > >> How about discussing the things they haven't done? > >> > >> Spam would be pretty high on my list. It's tangled up with > (in)security -- a > >> lot comes from infected systems or phished accounts. > >> > >> The current approach to spam is cost shifting. If you don't pay for > your > >> abuse desk, the crap that you send or phishing sites you host..., mean= s > that > >> the rest of the net has to spend more on defense. > >> > >> Anybody remember Spamford Wallace? He was going to setup a spam > friendly ISP. > >> Nobody would connect to him. I wonder what would happen if a few ISP= s > that > >> host a lot of abuse had more troubles getting connected to the net. > Would a > >> few well publicized examples be enough to spread the word? > >> > >> > >> > >> High on my list would be dis/mis-information. The business model seem= s > to be > >> to show customers things that will keep them online so you can show > them more > >> ads. Gues what does that? > >> > >> Is this also cost shifting? It's society as a whole that has to pay > for the > >> disruption caused by bogus information. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> These are my opinions. I hate spam. > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Nnagain mailing list > >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > > > > > > > -- > > Nathan Simington > > cell: 305-793-6899 > > _______________________________________________ > > Nnagain mailing list > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > > > -- > Oct 30: > https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --00000000000032cb900608c49509 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I just can't even. So many garbage ideas out of Brusse= ls as of late. DSA, DMA, DSM... GDPR in the past, or even that horrible CRA= =3D=C2=A0Cyber Resilience Act:

https:/= /blog.nlnetlabs.nl/open-source-software-vs-the-cyber-resilience-act/

Good intentions don't count, bad results do. Mos= t of the evil in this world was done by people with good intentions and thi= s is not an exception.


<= div dir=3D"ltr">
= All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

=C2=A0

https://w= ww.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714= =C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.= borsik@gmail.com



On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 1:45=E2= =80=AFAM Dave Taht via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
=
On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 4:23=E2=80=AFPM Nathan Simin= gton via Nnagain
<nnag= ain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> This has gone from mere cost-shifting to protocol takeover. Self-hosti= ng is essentially dead because you are guaranteed to get filtered by Outloo= k and Gmail, which means that there is de facto embrace-and-extend -- "= ;best viewed in Internet Explorer at 800x600" but for a core standard.=

This is one of those things that could be reversed if there was law
guaranteeing=C2=A0 freedom of communications. That really does not seem to<= br> be the way the world is going, however.

See: https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/ch= at-control/ for example.

I like email (and netnews). You had a copy, the recipients had copies,
and pretty much anyone that had the capability of snooping in-between
had copies.=C2=A0 Nobody ever got arround to making starttls mandatory.
Compare this to all the even more centralized, but incompatible chat
systems since, multiple ones that have vanished from the web (g+), and
others that are barely hanging on, like disquis.

Even with the flight to mastodon and other heavily encrypted home
server technologies, email remains the most common, useful and
malleable public identifier for connecting people to people. I would
like to make it better, for everyone, again.


> On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 5:48=E2=80=AFPM Hal Murray via Nnagain <nnagain@lis= ts.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> [Was Amtrack]
>>
>>
>> > 2) I could get mad that I figure 80% of this new email list i= s vanishing into
>> > spam boxes.
>>
>>
>> > What of the 10s of thousands of other emails that have come o= ver the years
>> > not just from lists.bufferbloat.net but from people tr= ying honestly to
>> > communicate?
>>
>> There is/was a good discussion of all the good things that network= geeks have
>> done.
>>
>> How about discussing the things they haven't done?
>>
>> Spam would be pretty high on my list.=C2=A0 It's tangled up wi= th (in)security -- a
>> lot comes from infected systems or phished accounts.
>>
>> The current approach to spam is cost shifting.=C2=A0 If you don= 9;t pay for your
>> abuse desk, the crap that you send or phishing sites you host..., = means that
>> the rest of the net has to spend more on defense.
>>
>> Anybody remember Spamford Wallace?=C2=A0 He was going to setup a s= pam friendly ISP.
>>=C2=A0 Nobody would connect to him.=C2=A0 I wonder what would happe= n if a few ISPs that
>> host a lot of abuse had=C2=A0 more troubles getting connected to t= he net.=C2=A0 Would a
>> few well publicized examples be enough to spread the word?
>>
>>
>>
>> High on my list would be dis/mis-information.=C2=A0 The business m= odel seems to be
>> to show customers things that will keep them online so you can sho= w them more
>> ads.=C2=A0 Gues what does that?
>>
>> Is this also cost shifting?=C2=A0 It's society as a whole that= has to pay for the
>> disruption caused by bogus information.
>>
>>
>> --
>> These are my opinions.=C2=A0 I hate spam.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nnagain mailing list
>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagai= n
>
>
>
> --
> Nathan Simington
> cell: 305-793-6899
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nna= gain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain



--
Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/= 0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
--00000000000032cb900608c49509--